Hi

[Kyuuketsuki]

Could you please tell me which aspect of the Islam principle you find unacceptable or find abuse in them as you stated that no scripter is perfect.

[youtube]evkcgilovzs[/youtube]

Same old shit, different (well nearly) deity!

Kyu

[Samson]

Great post Kyu....I've seen a few of this guys vids in the past...Just not this one... Truly hit the nail on the head with this video.

[leo-rcc]

Sura 4 34

YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great
.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Now I have no doubt that you will pull the old semantics and/or improper translation defence. The fact of the matter is that it is in the Quran (and I have the Dutch edition here and it says the same) and it also a fact that while some Imams try to distance themselves from the verse by trying to jerk the verse completely out of context, there are a lot of Imams that embrace that verse fully and advocate wife beatings because of it.

Even if you were to say that it is not the intention to make women a little less inferior than live stock, then your beloved leader shouldn't have put those lines in the book to begin with and avoid confusion. If the Quran is the inerrant word of Allah, it should be unambiguous.

[peace2u]

The verse requires an in-depth explanation, so please read in full and I hope the following clarifies the matter.

First, let’s remember that domestic violence is a universal issue. Despite the universality of domestic violence, Muslim men involved in wife abuse have attracted more attention than others. Their stories are highlighted in the media, giving the impression that this is an inherent part of Islam supported by the Qur’an, which of course is not true.

There is a distinction between Islam and the behaviour of individual Muslims. As in any law, creed, or faith, it is unfair to hold each and every Muslim as an official representative of the faith, perceiving his or her behaviour as a reflection of Islamic teachings and assuming it is supported by the Qur’an. Individual behaviour is nothing but a reflection of a human individual, who could be right or wrong, gentle or violent, pious or otherwise. If some individuals who happen to be Muslims misbehave, then this is their personal problem of bad manners or misinterpretation of the rules of their faith. It is not fair to allow their aggression to tarnish the image of a major world religion and all its millions of followers.

Islam honours and respects women. In fact, abundant evidence in the Qur’an and Sunnah assert the rights of women in words and deeds, giving them rights that promote and preserve their human dignity in all aspects of life and worship, so it is not logical that such a humane religion would encourage physical or psychological abuse of any sort against Muslims of either gender and of any age, race, or social status, much less against women.

Marriage in Islam is a sacred bond. In Islam, the marriage of a man and a woman is not just a financial and physical arrangement of living together, but a sacred contract, a gift from Allah, to lead a happy, enjoyable life and continue the human race. The relationship between the spouses as described in the Qur’an reflects equal rights and responsibilities, and it should be based on tranquillity, love, and mercy. It is the duty of both husband and wife to be a source of comfort and tranquillity for each other.

Islam is also against emotional abuse, not just physical abuse. Emotional abuse includes name calling, belittling, using threat of divorce as a weapon to manipulate the other, threatening with a real weapon (even with no intention of using it). Even frequent teasing, though it might start as fun, may become a type of abuse if it takes the form of sarcasm or demeaning remarks.

So I hope that provides some background information before we tackle the verse.

The Arabic verb daraba is better understood as “hit” rather than “beat”. Islam actually prohibits men from hitting women, except in one very limited case when the wife is continuously rebellious and disobedient—not when she disobeys one request—and only as a last resort after all else fails. The husband should first admonish her, then abandon her bed if she continues to be rebellious, and only if those steps have failed then he may hit, not beat, her. The earliest commentators understood that the hitting was to be light enough not to leave a mark and should be done with nothing bigger than a miswak (tooth stick).

Also, Muslims are instructed to follow the exemplary model of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who was known to have never hit his wives, servants, or even an animal.

What is the definition of “rebellious” and disobedient”?

In Islam, while men and women have equal rights, those rights are not always identical. Islam intends the spouses to be complementary, not in rivalry, so there is a clear set of rights and responsibilities for each within the contract that rules the relationship. Islam stresses the importance of respecting contracts, most of all the marriage contract, which is described in the Qur’an as “mithaqan ghalithan” (a firm pledge). Furthermore, there is no tyranny in an Islamic marriage. We are all told to conduct our affairs by mutual consultation. So in marriage, the man is named responsible for protecting, decision-making, and breadwinning; in return he has a right to have a quiet, orderly home and a loving wife to come home to who doesn’t make his life difficult with constant bad temper, nagging, or aggressive attitude.

The woman is named skilled homemaker, loving mother, and faithful counsellor; in return she has a right to be provided for fully by a caring, faithful, protective husband who honours her and respects her individuality. Both should be equally supportive, loving, and caring. Both merit respect and support from their partner.

As in any other contract, signing means that both parties agree to the terms and intend to adhere to the rules. So failing to fulfill one’s responsibilities is a breach of the contract and merits limiting or temporarily withholding a corresponding right until that one gets back within the boundaries of the contract, or else the contract is nullified.

So, for example, a wife who repeatedly and intentionally refuses to consult her husband and does things that damage the well-being of the family, or one who fails to do what they had agreed upon after consultation for no logical reason other than rebellion, or one who intentionally does what her husband hates just to make him angry, is certainly a type of woman who should be disciplined in order to preserve the peace and harmony of the Muslim home and the family members within it. This is, of course, assuming that the husband is continuously fulfilling his responsibility towards his wife and family but is not getting his fair rights in return, and that all other peaceful methods of resolving the dispute have failed.

While it is important that a wife recognizes the authority of her husband as the head of the household, the husband should also use his authority with respect and kindness towards his wife. If there arises any disagreement or dispute between them, then it should be resolved in a peaceful manner. Spouses should seek the counsel of their elders and other respectable family members and friends to patch up the rift and solve the differences.

However, in some cases a husband may use some light disciplinary action in order to correct the moral infraction of his wife, but this is only applicable in extreme cases and it should be resorted to if one is sure it would improve the situation. However, if there is a fear that it might worsen the relationship or may wreak havoc on him or the family, then he should avoid it completely.

The Qur’an is very clear on this issue. Almighty Allah says what means:
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more strength than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in the husband’s absence what Allah would have them to guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next), refuse to share their beds, (and last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them means (of annoyance); for Allah is most High and Great (above you all). If you fear a breach between them twain, appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family and the other from hers. If they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation; for Allah has full knowledge and is acquainted with all things. }* (An-Nisaa’ 4:34-35)

It is important to read the section fully. One should not take part of the verse and use it to justify one’s own misconduct. This verse neither permits violence nor condones it. It guides us to ways to handle delicate family situations with care and wisdom. The word “beating” is used in the verse, but it does not mean physical abuse. The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) explained it “dharban ghayra mubarrih,” which means “a light tap that leaves no mark.” He further said that face must be avoided. Some other scholars are of the view that it is no more than a light touch by siwak or toothbrush.

Generally, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) used to discourage his followers from taking even this measure. He never hit any female, and he used to say that the best of men are those who do not hit their wives. In one hadith he expressed his extreme repulsion from this behavior and said, "How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then embrace (sleep with) her?” (Al-Bukhari, English Translation, vol. 8, Hadith 68, pp. 42-43).

It is also important to note that even this “light strike” mentioned in the verse is not to be used to correct some minor problem, but it is permissible to resort to only in a situation of some serious moral misconduct when admonishing the wife fails, and avoiding sleeping with her would not help. If this disciplinary action can correct a situation and save the marriage, then one should use it.

If the problem relates to the wife’s behavior, the husband may exhort her and appeal for reason. In most cases, this measure is likely to be sufficient. In cases where the problem persists, the husband may express his displeasure in another peaceful manner, by sleeping in a separate bed from hers. There are cases, however, in which a wife persists in bad habits and shows contempt of her husband and disregard for her marital obligations. Instead of divorce, the husband may resort to another measure that may save the marriage, at least in some cases. Such a measure is more accurately described as a gentle tap on the body, but never on the face, making it more of a symbolic measure than a punitive one.

The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness of continued refraction does not imply its desirability. In several hadiths, the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) discouraged this measure. Here are some of his sayings in this regard:

“Do not beat the female servants of Allah.”

“Some [women] visited my family complaining about their husbands [beating them]. These [husbands] are not the best of you.”

Last Point, in movies, for example, one often sees the following type of scene: a man and a woman love each other but in some matter the woman simply does not want to listen to the man even though she realizes deep down that he is thinking for the good of both of them. The man tries all the tender ways to bring the woman around to his point of view without any success. Frustrated, the man at last bursts into anger and gives the woman a slap. This shakes the woman out of her mood and she falls on his shoulders, with both happier than before. Of course, movies are no guide for us but sometimes they do represent human nature and life as it is.

I hope the above explanation clarifies the verse.

[leo-rcc]

I am sorry to say it doesn't. All you do is write a 1500 line apology for something that is crystal clear in your holy scripture. The fact alone that you need to go into such detail just to talk your way out of it already gives away the shaky ground your scripture is based.

In fact you do exactly what I predicted you'd do in my previous post. That makes me a prophet I think.

I think you are a nice guy and I believe you when you say that you don't believe domestic violence is condoned. But don't try to convince us of that, convince the Imams that advocate that it is condoned.

To clarify:
[youtube]G6sW9Mt2axc[/youtube]

[Kyuuketsuki]

And there (in that video) in a nutshell you have it (pay attention Peace) ... all scriptures can be interpreted in many ways, they are not precise in the way science is precise (or supposed to be). You (apparently) choose to interpret your scriptures moderately and that is a good thing BUT you have to realize that in order to do so (just like Christians who do the same) you are viewing them through rose-tinted spectacles!

As the Meerkat says, "Simples!" (I love that meerkat)!

Kyu

[peace2u]

I am sorry to say it doesn't. All you do is write a 1500 line apology for something that is crystal clear in your holy scripture. The fact alone that you need to go into such detail just to talk your way out of it already gives away the shaky ground your scripture is based.

I think you are a nice guy and I believe you when you say that you don't believe domestic violence is condoned. But don't try to convince us of that, convince the Imams that advocate that it is condoned.

First of all, I did not write a 1500 line apology, I just tried to explain the verse in detail, but unfortunately it seems that you have discarded the logic behind the verse and did not fully understand the information or read all of it.

Like I said in the second paragraph that the behaviour of Muslims should not represents Islam because if they do something wrong or do not follow the proper principles than you cannot blame Islam for it. For example, the US Law says do not kill, but the number of murderers in the US are continuously increasing year by year. Who do you blame? The US Law or the Amercian Citizens who are committing the murder. Should I judge America by looking at its criminals? Obviously Not. So if certain Imams do encourage beatings (like I said, the proper arabic translation is hit and hence not leaving marks) then they are wrong and not the Islam.

However, if you want a Muslim who can represent Islam in its truest form, then look at its last Prophet. He never hit any of his wives and never any of his wives ever complained about him. Why? because he knew how to be a proper husband according to the Islamic principles and his wives knew how to be a wife according to the Islamic principles. Therefore, he never hit any of his wives and discourages it because hitting (not beating or leaving marks) is the last resort according the verse.

I was not surprised that you pick this verse out, because it's a verse that majority of people pick out when they try to show unjust for Muslim women. But in fact, Islam is just to Men and Women.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I was not surprised that you pick this verse out, because it's a verse that majority of people pick out when they try to show unjust for Muslim women. But in fact, Islam is just to Men and Women.

Wrong! You may well be just to men and women but your scriptures can be interpreted in many ways good and bad! It is exactly the same with the Christian Bible and the Jewish Torah ... they are all equally flawed.

Those who chose to fly planes into the World Trade Center Towers based their actions and beliefs on the Quran, those who did the 7/7 bombings in London did the same. In the past there have been Christians who justified the bombings of abortion clinics based on interpretations of their bible and it's interesting to note that the Ku Klux Klan use biblical scripture to justify their whacked up worldviews.

Kyu

[peace2u]

And there (in that video) in a nutshell you have it (pay attention Peace) ... all scriptures can be interpreted in many ways, they are not precise in the way science is precise (or supposed to be). You (apparently) choose to interpret your scriptures moderately and that is a good thing BUT you have to realize that in order to do so (just like Christians who do the same) you are viewing them through rose-tinted spectacles!

As the Meerkat says, "Simples!" (I love that meerkat)!

I agree with you that scriptures can be interpreted in many ways but the interpretation only differs when people put their own ideas and desires behind it to justify their own purpose. Or sometimes they just make mistakes. The interpretation posted above tries to be just to the Muslims man and women.

To comment on the video, it tries to point out that Islam is against women and that Muslims are bad people (this is common in the media). So let me give you a few points to think about.

1) Islam is the fastest growing religion in the Western world (America, UK, and Europe) whereby 2/3 of these people becoming Muslim are Women? So, why would a so called liberated western Woman would want to become a Muslim and subjugate herself?

2) I agree with the lady in the video that there should be more Muslims standing up and speaking out against extremist and Terrorist Muslims but who controls the media? When an bad Muslim does something wrong (against the Islamic principles) it is given headline in the news, but when there's a positive action of Muslims then no one ever hears about it. Why?

[Kyuuketsuki]

1) Islam is the fastest growing religion in the Western world (America, UK, and Europe) whereby 2/3 of these people becoming Muslim are Women? So, why would a so called liberated western Woman would want to become a Muslim and subjugate herself?

Because she's fucking stupid?

2) I agree with the lady in the video that there should be more Muslims standing up and speaking out against extremist and Terrorist Muslims but who controls the media? When an bad Muslim does something wrong (against the Islamic principles) it is given headline in the news, but when there's a positive action of Muslims then no one ever hears about it. Why?

Life's a bitch and then you die.

Kyu