God, come out, come out wherever you are!

[Godscreated]

...

Tell me what is the fault that sends one to hell, put a name or definition to the fault (sin is an answer, but it's not specific enough).

No, first explain why it matters in this debate that the specific fault(s) be named? All we need to know is that the person who winds up in hell is there by his own fault. What exactly that fault is is not relevant to the discussion.

There is one fault that will get you there, it's the one discussed. All the others can be forgiven.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

...
There is one fault that will get you there, it's the one discussed. All the others can be forgiven.

What's your point, Captain Sidetrack?

[Black Chakram]

If people are willing, allow me to interject.

There are a lot of Christians (myself included), who view hell a little differently. When the Bible mentioned a "lake of fire", it's likely that what it was actually referring to was symbolism referring to an actual lake outside the Western gate of Jerusalem. This lake was surrounded by hills, upon which a number of pagan worshipers made sacrifices to their heathen gods. The light from their fires would reflect in the lake. This provided strong symbolism for the "lake of fire" being representative of a life devoted to heathen worship.

I personally don't believe that hell has anything to do with actual fire. After all, if God really took the mindset of saying, "You don't believe in me? Fine! Suffer for all of eternity!", He'd be pretty damn petty.

Instead, I take another view. Hell is a complete absence from God. Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant. Hence the idea why hell is so bad.

Really, what this comes down to is the issue of free will again. God says, "You get to choose. Either you can willingly serve me and spend eternity with me, or you can choose to have nothing to do with me and go to hell." Ultimately, God is going to give you what you want. After all, He wouldn't FORCE someone to go to heaven if they didn't want to go. That would be ludicrous.

Most Christians with this view would hold that if you choose to go to hell, you won't really understand just how nasty it is to be separated from God until you're in hell. There are a multitude of questions that could be asked here. People are welcome to ask them. (This message is getting long, so I don't want to go into all of them right now.)

So what about the people who've never heard of God/the Bible/etc? There are 2 ideas on that.
1) They go to hell because, after all, why hang out with some dude you've never heard of for all eternity?
2) They'll be given a chance to choose after death. i.e. jungle native dies, sees God, then says, "Ooooooh! You're the great spirit I've been worshiping that whole time? Dang! If I had known your name, I would have happily followed!"

You'll find a pretty solid split in the above point among Christians.

[Godscreated]

I think a good question is why theists preach and act as though anyone who has not heard of and accepted Jesus Christ before their death goes to hell, while they'll usually say, if asked, that people who never had an opportunity to accept Jesus will go to heaven.

Not true, just because one has not heard of Christ does not mean they are off the hook for their sin. They will be judged for them, and God in His justice will determine what happens. They can't be held responsible for not accepting Christ.

This, despite the complete lack of biblical justification for that view, and the biblical evidence against that view. For example in John 14:6 Jesus says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and in Acts 16:31 Paul tells the Jailer: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

Both those verses and many others that state the same are true, for those that have heard of Christ.

If those without knowledge of Jesus are condemned, then God can hardly be considered good, for how can anyone be condemned for not knowing what they had no opportunity to learn?

God is just and will judge those who have not heard of Christ justly. Just is not what God is, just is who God is.

If those without knowledge are saved, then how could any good and sane person bear to preach the gospel to others, knowing good and well that some will not accept thereby ensuring that they go to hell?

The ones without knowledge are not necessarily saved, they are judged and after that God determines what happens, justly.

[Matt231]

Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant.

So you want to be around someone who demands constant worship and uses fear to control you?

[libalchris]

If people are willing, allow me to interject.

There are a lot of Christians (myself included), who view hell a little differently. When the Bible mentioned a "lake of fire", it's likely that what it was actually referring to was symbolism referring to an actual lake outside the Western gate of Jerusalem. This lake was surrounded by hills, upon which a number of pagan worshipers made sacrifices to their heathen gods. The light from their fires would reflect in the lake. This provided strong symbolism for the "lake of fire" being representative of a life devoted to heathen worship.

I personally don't believe that hell has anything to do with actual fire. After all, if God really took the mindset of saying, "You don't believe in me? Fine! Suffer for all of eternity!", He'd be pretty damn petty.

Instead, I take another view. Hell is a complete absence from God. Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant. Hence the idea why hell is so bad.

...

So what about the people who've never heard of God/the Bible/etc? There are 2 ideas on that.
1) They go to hell because, after all, why hang out with some dude you've never heard of for all eternity?
2) They'll be given a chance to choose after death. i.e. jungle native dies, sees God, then says, "Ooooooh! You're the great spirit I've been worshiping that whole time? Dang! If I had known your name, I would have happily followed!"

You'll find a pretty solid split in the above point among Christians.

Fair enough, but the same arguments still apply, and this view still makes God look petty, as it still involves eternal suffering.
As to possibility 1, this seems completely unjust of God no?
As for number 2, can you support it biblically? And is it just? Why don't I get the same opportunity? I won't have a chance to know for sure god exists before I choose. According to the bible I have to choose now despite the lack of evidence.

[Black Chakram]

Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant.

So you want to be around someone who demands constant worship and uses fear to control you?

Fear? Why would I fear someone who has my best interests at heart? And God hardly controls me. I wake up every morning and have to make a decision whether or not He's worth following. Some days I don't make that decision as fully as others.

And yes, he does demand worship, but consider this:

Christians state that the God of the Bible is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If a being any less than that demanded my worship, I'd demand from him that he tell me why he deserves it. After all, it would just be some powerful creature, not truly a GOD. But IF God really is all those things then He's EARNED my constant worship and would truly deserve it.

[Tea Earl Grey Hot]

Just incase any theists have forgotten, these questions still stand and the contradiction that happens when saying yes to both of them hasn't been solved yet:

1. Is it entirely a person's own fault that he goes to hell?
2. Is it wrong for a Christian to not witness to someone?

See my past posts in this thread for my detailed discussion of these two questions and their implications.

Edit: this post specifically: http://atheistforums.org/thread-12571-po...#pid279128

[libalchris]

I think a good question is why theists preach and act as though anyone who has not heard of and accepted Jesus Christ before their death goes to hell, while they'll usually say, if asked, that people who never had an opportunity to accept Jesus will go to heaven.

Not true, just because one has not heard of Christ does not mean they are off the hook for their sin. They will be judged for them, and God in His justice will determine what happens. They can't be held responsible for not accepting Christ.

Did you read my bible quote? No one goes to the Father except through me? As for being judged by their sins, how can they be judged if they were never taught it was wrong? The wages of sin is death. That's all sin. So, according to what you just said, the only way for a non-believer to go to heaven is for them to be perfect. Of course you may disagree, and say God is more just than that, but you cannot justify it biblically. All you can argue is that "God is just and we can not know his mind"

This, despite the complete lack of biblical justification for that view, and the biblical evidence against that view. For example in John 14:6 Jesus says: "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." and in Acts 16:31 Paul tells the Jailer: "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved."

Both those verses and many others that state the same are true, for those that have heard of Christ.

so what verses do you have that support the idea that nonbelievers are judged only by their sins if they never had the opportunity to learn of the gospel?

If those without knowledge of Jesus are condemned, then God can hardly be considered good, for how can anyone be condemned for not knowing what they had no opportunity to learn?

God is just and will judge those who have not heard of Christ justly. Just is not what God is, just is who God is.

Just according to what standards? God's? In that case whatever God does is just, and we have no say in the matter, which is hardly agreeable. God could do whatever he wants and it would be just. Personally, it seems to me that any reasonable person would not spread the gospel. That way, if God is truly just, people will be judged by who they are, not by whether or not they believed in God.

If those without knowledge are saved, then how could any good and sane person bear to preach the gospel to others, knowing good and well that some will not accept thereby ensuring that they go to hell?

The ones without knowledge are not necessarily saved, they are judged and after that God determines what happens, justly.

again with the justness, see above.

[Matt231]

Now, given that most Christians believe God is all around us, absence from Him would be pretty unpleasant.

So you want to be around someone who demands constant worship and uses fear to control you?

Fear? Why would I fear someone who has my best interests at heart? And God hardly controls me. I wake up every morning and have to make a decision whether or not He's worth following. Some days I don't make that decision as fully as others.

And yes, he does demand worship, but consider this:

Christians state that the God of the Bible is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. If a being any less than that demanded my worship, I'd demand from him that he tell me why he deserves it. After all, it would just be some powerful creature, not truly a GOD. But IF God really is all those things then He's EARNED my constant worship and would truly deserve it.

How has he earned your worship? What has he done for YOU?

Maybe Satan is 100% omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Would he also deserve your worship? Or maybe God is all those things but also evil. He has done nothing to EARN worship.