10 Arguments Against Hell

[C Rod]

"Your god supposedly created all humans with a sinful nature, than he refuses to reveal himself to those who "don't seek him" than he damn these finite mortal beings to an eternity of torture upon their deaths."-Cinjin

We have sinned in word, thought, and deed or all fall short of the glory of God. It does not say, "I created you a sinner." Choice, simple desire, and self control
Your like a child who creeps silently to get or do something he shouldn't and then, the dad comes up behind him and says, what are you doing, and the child is all of sudden scared and worried and might even begin crying. The child is upset because he is caught, do you think he would have had those emotions if he was doing something right. Your simply crying because you got caught, because getting caught simply sucks.

But tell God to reveal himself to you and then be a good person because of that. I know now your a moral person because well you came to that conclusion all on your own, yea right. You have been influenced and had mimetic desires. So have we. That's why we don't stone gays and disobedient children. And so we have a pretty good idea of what a god, image you(wait you cant) and see if he would not be love and to want you to love to. But if you don't agree with that and believe you came to that conclusion on your own and have known it before everyone, then its your fault. I believe that notion, that idea understood and shared, copied and written down did not start 20 years ago or a 100 years ago or a thousand years ago, i believe it started with God, and i give credit where credit is due.

[Cinjin]

This last post you made is just a regurgitation of the same thing you wrote in the first post. It would be pointless for me to offer you a rebuttal as you will more than likely put forth the same verbal diarrhea until your jesus returns (basically until your dead). I'm not going to go around in circles with you any longer. I'll suffice it to say that your arguments are the same old thing around here. Lots of dancing around semantics and I've seen your silly points all too many times:
Who's idea of justice are you using? God doesn't answer to human justice. You just want salvation and live a sinner's life. If you don't want to believe, god will not reveal himself to you.
blah blah blah ... same ole same ole. You are an obedient sheep and I'm sure your make-believe master is very proud of you.


I'm sure we'll debate on other things in the near future, but I'm tired of this one ... I've had it sooooo many times before. I'll catch up with you on another.

[DeistPaladin]

Apologies in advance if I'm repeating what has already been said by others. I have fallen behind in this thread.

You are applying a human standard to a divine situation.

So much for absolute standards of morality.

Yet God does punish while people are on earth so that they will come to repentance. Sadly too many humans have added in their own ideas distorting what just punishment really is.

Or maybe we don't assume a divine hand in events that have a natural explanation (see Occam's Razor).

Also, judgement day is no surprise. The Book of Revelation has told everyone it is coming thus it is up to people to make the changes prior to dying.

And the Norse religion has told us about Ragnorak. When you understand why that has no meaning for you, you understand why Revelation has no meaning for us.

Your chance to rehabilitate is done while you are alive NOT after you have died and realize that God exists.

Why?

The key is not how good a life you lived, it is the mere fact that you you rejected Jesus as your Savior.

You just repeated what I wrote in reason #4.

So you are rejecting God's way of salvation because someone else paid for your crimes?

I'm saying it is an immoral system of justice. If you agree, as you did with reason #4, then you have no problem serving an immoral god. What does that say about your own morality?

There are ways to tell which one is correct,

You keep agreeing with me. Yet you serve this god?

Who said life is a test?

This one often comes from Muslim apologists. They believe in Hell too.

According to the Bible--...

That means nothing to me just like what is written in the Koran or other holy books of other religions mean nothing to you.

Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.

So Satan can "make" Yahweh do things that would be painful to Yahweh? Things Yahweh doesn't want to do?

Does Yahweh make the rules or not? Is Yahweh all powerful or not?

God does NOT hide

Really? Where can I find Yahweh then?

God is the same God in both the Old and NEw testaments and HE is the same God today.

Have you read the OT? Yahweh gives a speech to the entire nation of Judea (Judges 1:1). Yahweh has lunch with Abraham and wrestles with Jacob. He spoke to Moses face to face as friends do. There was nothing mysterious or distant in this god. Such supernatural upheaval seems to be long gone in this universe.

[Abishalom]

I should note that although some of these arguments are of my own creation, many are not and may be found word for word either on this site or elsewhere. Regardless, a large amount of credit is owed to another author and I would gladly give it if I could remember where this list came from. If you are the author, do step forward, as there is no intent to plagiarize your excellent work. I am merely posting this list because I think it is an excellent sheet of paper to have with you when debating eternal damnation with a self-proclaimed sheep.

10 Logical Arguments Against Hell

1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it.

2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.

3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture.

4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.

5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment.

6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth.

7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem.

8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life.

9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?

10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character.

Here's a few more.

1. How can a man be eternally damned if man is not eternal? All humans have a birth date and a death date.
2. Why didn't God tell Adam and Eve they were going to hell for eating of the tree of good and evil (Genesis 2:17)?
3. Jesus came to remove the penalty for sin which was death (Romans 6:23). Did He also come to impose a more severe punishment for the wicked?
4. If God declares the end from the beginning, then where was hell in the beginning (Genesis 1:1)?
5. Why would God distinguish different punishments for different sins, only to remove the curse of law and replace it with a generic punishment for all?
6. Why would God raise everyone from the dead and have all the declare Christ as Lord only to send the sinners to eternal fire afterwards?

1 Thessalonians 5:21
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Eternal damnation claim just doesn't hold water. In all truth, the bible was not originally written in english. If you read the original version, you will scratch your head about this hell/eternal torment (which is a pagan concept) because it is nowhere to be found and really not supported by the English scripture.

[Welsh cake]

9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?

1. He hates God. 2. NO. 3. See #1. 4. If you have read the Bible you will see that satan is tossed into the lake of fire along with the unbelieving humans, so he does not toture anyone nor do his minions. Their work is to deceive as many people as they can before time runs out in that way they hurt God by making Him destroy and reject the very souls He created and loves.

You don't seem to understand the mindset of said villain and how he operates in the fictional context, nor the obvious contradiction of points 2 and 4.

He's won. Sorry to break it to you. He's not trying to become god, that's a red herring, he's actually undoing his creation. He's trying to destroy everyone around him including himself. The self-destruction of Satan alone is proof he's beaten God, the creator.

Why? Because God wasn't able to stop this, heal/redeem him, place countermeasures or quickly identify that a perfect being may corrupt him/her/itself with inequity.

Satan's managed to take down BILLIONS of human souls and a THIRD of Heaven that God cherishes and loves with him.

How is that anything but a victory for a destroyer? Let's face it, if you were God who is forced to salvage what's left uncorrupted you'd be scarred forever after the events of the fallen first creation. A triumph equalled only by its monumental failure. You're a perfect god that managed to do things imperfectly. You've lost those precious souls forever and can never repair the damage.

You must accept the Second Heaven is a joke compared to what IT COULD HAVE BEEN.

[DeeTee]

So much for absolute standards of morality.

No, God's word contains the absolute standard for morality

Or maybe we don't assume a divine hand in events that have a natural explanation (see Occam's Razor).

But you assume He does not exist which undermine's your own argument. Religion and belief exist thus it has to be taken into account. Your problem is in proving that God does not exist and mere unbelief does not constitute proof.

And the Norse religion has told us about Ragnorak. When you understand why that has no meaning for you, you understand why Revelation has no meaning for us.

that is because you want the easy way out. You refuse to do the work and grasp the fact that false religions exist and you refuse to distinguish between true and false belief but lump it all together. That is the coward's way.

I know why Revelation ha sno meaning for you--you do not believe but unbelief does not change the truth.

Why

Because those are the rules. Those rules include 'the use of faith' after you died faith is no longer required as you will see for yourself what you rejected. Your choice is also made here while you are alive, you can't live your life the way you want to then see that God is true and exists then say 'ho wait...I believe now.' You rejected God's plan of salvation you don't get to change your mind once you have died and see that hell is realand you are going there. It wouldn't be fair now would it.

I'm saying it is an immoral system of justice

How is it immoral? You have heard the gospel message, you have been given plenty of chances to repent and accept Jesus as your savior, how could it be immoral? You have the same chance as anyone else, and you have the ability to freely choose like everyone else.

This one often comes from Muslim apologists

Who said the Muslims are correct and why would you listen to them over the truth?

That means nothing to me just like what is written in the Koran or other holy books of other religions mean nothing to you.

it means something to me and since I am on the Bible's side, I will use it as it is part of my perspective.

So Satan can "make" Yahweh do things that would be painful to Yahweh

You missed th epoiont. Satan is not making God do anything BUT using HIS declared judgement/punishment to destroy God's creation. satan keeps people from accepting God's plan of salvation God sends them to hell. God is not being made to do anything.

God gives people free choice, you get to choose whom you will follow, it is NOT God's fault you chose wrong.

Really? Where can I find Yahweh then

You don't believe He exists so why would you look for Him? The equation calls for 'faith' you want to avoid that but it can't be done.

Have you read the OT

So? God chose to do that, He also chose to involve His son and the Holy Spirit. God does have free choice too you know. No man can come unto the Father except by me--Jesus.

[KichigaiNeko]

[DeistPaladin]

No, God's word contains the absolute standard for morality

But you said that moral standards don't apply to your god. One set applies to us humans. Another set, if anything at all, applies to your god. "Rules for thee, not for me", says Yahweh. By definition, this is not an absolute standard of morality.

But you assume He does not exist which undermine's your own argument. Religion and belief exist thus it has to be taken into account. Your problem is in proving that God does not exist and mere unbelief does not constitute proof.

Logical Fallacy: Burden of Proof

you refuse to distinguish between true and false belief but lump it all together. That is the coward's way.

See above. That's the logical way. Religions have the burden of proof. Until one can be proven true, they're all assumed to be false.

Why

Because those are the rules.

Logical Fallacy: Begging the Question

How is it immoral?

A. Moral justice can't involve someone being punished for someone else's crimes.
B. The only crime in Yahweh's justice is not being gullible. People are in Hell not for their crimes but for not believing what they're told to believe without evidence and against all evidence.

Who said the Muslims are correct and why would you listen to them over the truth?

I don't listen to them. They spout nonsense. You spout nonsense. Neither of you have any evidence to support either of your claims over the other. It's just two crazy guys on a street corner shouting at each other over who's imaginary friend is real.

it means something to me and since I am on the Bible's side, I will use it as it is part of my perspective.

But it's not evidence of anything.

Satan is not making God do anything BUT using HIS declared judgement/punishment to destroy God's creation.

Given how the vast majority of souls will be condemned, it looks like Satan does win in the end then.

God gives people free choice, you get to choose whom you will follow, it is NOT God's fault you chose wrong.

So life is a test then?

You don't believe He exists so why would you look for Him? The equation calls for 'faith' you want to avoid that but it can't be done.

What you call "faith" seems indistinguishable from gullibility.

He also chose to involve His son and the Holy Spirit. God does have free choice too you know. No man can come unto the Father except by me--Jesus.

And since Jesus is Yahweh,
"No man comes to me except by me" -Jesus
"Me, me, why have I forsaken me" -Jesus as he was bleeding on a cross because it was the only way he could convince himself to forgive us all for being such sinful beings which we are because an ancestor of ours ate a magic fruit after speaking with a talking snake.

[Godscreated]

10 Logical Arguments Against Hell

1. Just punishment should fit the crime. Hell is eternal torture, the likes of which are hard for me to imagine a crime that would warrant it

Yes, the crime should fit the punishment. Hell is eternal, but not torture. The crimes of a sinner are eternal, the sin is committed against the eternal God, thus making the crime eternal. Until the sins are forgiven they remain, as I said God is eternal, and as long as God is so are those sins that have not been forgiven. So the punishment fits the crime perfectly.

2. Punishment should discourage bad behavior. Since Judgment Day comes as a surprise after our life is over, it doesn't do much to discourage bad behavior.

Surprise to who, can't be anyone here this has been discussed to much, seems to me an unfounded assumption has been made. So knowing hell exist, should be a deterrent to bad behavior. However this is not hell's main purpose, it exist to punish those who have sin that isn't forgiven.

3. Punishment should rehabilitate. Hell is eternal. There is no chance for parole. It's only function is to torture.

You can not rehabilitate those who have committed crimes and do not repent from those crimes. This is a standard of rehabilitation. Many who go into the punishment system in this country are never paroled, the punishment fits the crime or they haven't rehabilitated. Just because a person is not paroled, doesn't mean they are being tortured, torture is illegal in this country.

4. The decision on who goes to Hell isn't based on how good or evil you were in life but on whether or not you joined the right religion and held the correct set of unproven metaphysical beliefs. No matter how evil you were, Christ will forgive you if you convert. No matter how good you were, Christ will condemn you if you don't convert. Therefore, Hell is not to punish wrongdoers but rather to torture wrong thinkers. This is not justice. This is a dictator tormenting non-loyal citizens.

This analogy of hell and punishment are not what scriptures teach, not believing in Christ does not put you in hell, sin is the reason, to be specific sin not forgiven. You see it is based entirely on the bad in ones life, and has nothing to do with the good someone does. Heaven and hell are not a reward system, to the contrary, they are places people chose to live in eternity. The statement, Christ will forgive the worst of sinners is true, and even up to the last minutes of one's life, this is the love He has for all people. Thinking and doing are equal in God's eyes, that is to say a sin committed in the heart is a sin necessarily. The statement of God punishing (corrected the torture part) non-loyal citizens is false, big time false, people who go to hell were never a citizen of the Kingdom of God.

5. No moral system of justice can allow an innocent person to take the place of a guilty criminal in punishment.

Who is taking the place of the guilty, Christ will not be in hell for eternity, only the sinners will reside there. So, the above statement is of an uninformed opinion, nothing more.

6. On earth, there is no way of knowing which Hell is the true Hell. Muslims never worry about the Christian Hell and vice versa. If life on earth is a "test", Yahweh-Allah has done a lousy job of making sure to administer the test fairly, since passing the test will depend greatly on accident of birth.

What would make anyone believe that there is a test to pass about knowing if hell exist, and what does the place of birth have to do with anything, more unfounded conjecture. Hell is real and no one's opinion is required for it to exist.

7. If life is a "test" as Muslims and Christians alike often like to say, what is the test designed to do exactly? Normally, tests separate a population into groups according to their performance. It seems the criteria to pass this "test" is gullibility, accepting claims simply on the say-so of clerical figures. So what is Yahweh-Allah looking for? Gullible boot-licking sycophants it would seem.

Life is not a test, though life will test a person, we were not put here as a test for some purpose, however we are tested for a purpose. The purpose, to show that God's will is perfect, loving, morally correct and ect. It's who God is waiting for, the inheritors of the Kingdom.

8. If Hell is eternal, wouldn't we get used to the pain eventually? After being on fire for 200 years, wouldn't we get accustomed to the sensation? Wouldn't our eyes adjust to the darkness? No matter how bad Hell is, humans would get used to it. Conversely with Heaven, humans would soften until the bliss became part of life.

There is a large contradiction here, how can you have fire and yet be in darkness, only one of the two can apply to hell, since one is not compatible with the other. Let's see now, can one get accustom to pain, that seems to be a contradiction within it's own self. Why would Heaven soften a person, the most diverse place ever could not lead to a soft life, or a hard one, it is a life of astounding pleasure in serving and worshiping God.

9. What are Satan's motivations exactly? Does he win if he gets enough souls? Why would he torture souls that were not loyal to Yahweh/Allah? Even if Satan’s motivation for torturing humans is revenge against Yahweh/Allah, what possible satisfaction could be achieved by torturing people that god had already turned his back on for all eternity?

Satan's only motive is evil, he wins nothing and has lost everything. Satan gets no souls, this is not a game of rewards. Satan tortures no one, God would not allow it, why, because he would. Satan is in the same boat as all the lost, that's to say there is no revenge, God has done nothing for one to take revenge on Him. The lost have put their own selves in hell, they made a choice to be disobedient, then they did not choose to have the disobedience removed, thus they choose punishment. Satisfaction has nothing to do with the punishment (again corrected that torture thing), the punishment is justices for all, for eternity.

10. What are Yahweh-Allah's motivations exactly? If the criteria of entrance to Heaven are submission and gullibility, this suggests a highly egotistical god, if not a narcissistic one. Such a god would be expected to make regular appearances to his followers to bask in their devotion. Yet this same god hides? And this is the same god of their scriptures who regularly intervenes in overt ways? This is not a consistent, believable character.

There is no Allah, thus no motivation. God needs no motivation, that is a statement of ignorance, God is necessarily motivation for man. The criteria stated is incorrect, so that eliminates the egotistical and narcissistic labels for God. Faith in Christ, which redeems one from their sin is how one inherits the Kingdom. God does not hide, He reveals himself to those who believe (His followers), we see Him now and one day in all His glory, and since the above criteria fails, God does not have to physically reveal himself. Overt to those who do not know Him, to those of us who do, we are able to see Him at work.

[Ace Otana]

The crime is rejection of His Son as savior thus the punishment does fit the crime.

And if you haven't accepted nor rejected? Oh wait, you guys don't do middle grounds. No neutral position. The whole 'either your with me or against me' bullshit. Typical.

So what if you were to go to hell for rejecting Thor or Odin? Would you still think it's suits the crime for you to go to hell? And if your loved ones were being tortured? Would you still think it's just?

Besides, lack of belief / rejection of said belief is not a crime. Even if it was, it'll be victimless. For a god to torture for something so trivial means he has to be one hell of a stupid prick. That alone should tell you he don't exist, because I only know one species stupid enough to do such things, and that's man.