Best ways to discuss religion: logical arguments?

[JesusShaves]

hello, I'm new here and if you want to know more about me or why I'm here please see: http://atheistforums.org/thread-12839.html

About 3 days ago I had a idea. I wanted to get a better idea of how the Christian mind works, deals with logical problems, views Satan, and other religions. I signed up on a Christian form and asked them a hypothetical question "what would a religion look like if Satan wrote there holy book?" and "can you tell if other religions are satanically influenced?" and lastly "how can you know if your religion isn't inspired by Satan?".

Quite a few people immediately started to tell me how this was a impossible thing to prove because of how I had set it up. That is proving Satan didn't write the bible to someone that doesn't think Satan wrote the bible is impossible. Quite a few also seamed to think I was an arrogant know-it-all jerk and assumed many things about me.

I refuted that I was a Satanist, that I would not allow any answers possible (twice), that I threw out the bible as evidence (after saying that I didn't care how much it said that it was not written by Satan) and many other hints that things I didn't quite get. They did seam to be quite nice, but it seamed they went crazy assuming things about me to the best of my efforts. After a while I did get a couple of fair answers, assuming God is real, and many many bible quotes that say the bible is right.

Someone said that Satan DOES influence religion because all the churches that accept homosexuals. I warned them that I would debate with anger if they continued to call homosexuality a sin around me (keep in mind that I spoke much more carefully then I am now) and I was I.P. banned for a month because they didn't want to see my anger.

I'm not telling you about this just to whine about it. I think it's interesting that just about every one of them tensed up the moment I presented something requiring a small amount of logic to solve and said I was an Atheist that wasn't interested in converting them.

I hope I'm not re-enforcing any stereotypes of Theists, but I'm compelled to ask. Are Theists allergic to logic?
That is do they see it as something foreign to there own brain that must be expelled? I know that Theists can and do use logic but I worry they fear doing so because of bad experiences they have had with someone else using logic and have reacted by concluding they can't argue that way, it's impossible.

I'd like, if I could to hear your stories and advice for the best experiences you've had introducing yourself as a Atheist and debating religious ideas. Thanks.

[Matt231]

Are Theists allergic to logic?

Basically.

[Phil]

I'd like, if I could to hear your stories and advice for the best experiences you've had introducing yourself as a Atheist and debating religious ideas. Thanks.

It isn't logic nor reason that makes or keeps anyone a theist so presenting ant logic or reason to them is a waste of time.

[JesusShaves]

It isn't logic nor reason that makes or keeps anyone a theist so presenting ant logic or reason to them is a waste of time.

What could be presented then?
Maybe a deeper understanding of the universe?

[Paul the Human]

They don't want a deeper understanding. Knowledge is antithetical to most Christians.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Of course not ALL believers are allergic to logic,just a distressingly large number.(try having a debate with a top theologian)

People whose beliefs are formed and maintained without the use of reason and credible evidence are impervious to such tools.

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Below is a link to the famous 1948 radio debate (part one ) between Bertrand Russell and the Jesuit theologian Frederick Copleton on "The Existence of God"
If you listen to the debate you may see why I'm so underwhelmed by Messrs Htchens and Dawkins.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BWFpBTqSN0

[Neo-Scholastic]

The idea that theists are by definition illogical seems common here, but incorrect. You will find many theists who are rational, some on this forum. You will also find many atheists here who believe themselves to be rational but are deluded.

[JesusShaves]

Of course not ALL believers are allergic to logic,just a distressingly large number.(try having a debate with a top theologian)

People whose beliefs are formed and maintained without the use of reason and credible evidence are impervious to such tools.

Whew! that video was hard to make it though. I need something a bit more dumbed down sorry.

Sure my mom is where I got my early ideas of logic and reason, she thinks that aliens have landed. Thanks mostly due to that crap they put on the history channel now about religions being inspired by aliens. I think that I could prove that aliens are not here logically to her. Though I have failed to so far she doesn't outright reject logical things.

By "top theologian" do you mean people like Kent Hovind? The ones I've seen in public debates do little more then repack that same stuff that was on the video you sent over and over.

So what if not reason and evidence are ideas of God based on?
Does that mean that it's better to use that thing they base there ideas on to build off when talking to them?
Or should I be making a attempt to introduce them into logic and reason?

Thanks

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The idea that theists are by definition illogical seems common here, but incorrect. You will find many theists who are rational, some on this forum. You will also find many atheists here who believe themselves to be rational but are deluded.

but I think that you would agree that most of them don't deal with things by using logic.
I know how to talk to people with logic and prove things, and if I run into some of the ones that are logical then no problem at all. I'm wondering how to talk to the ones that avoid this way of thinking.

[LiberalHearted]

Hey welcome, jesus Shaves (good one)

This is true not everyone is logical theist atheist alike. I would believe from my experience on other forums the vast majority logical folk are atheists.

I cannot remember correctly the exact time that satan 'appeared' as an equal to god, except in Job.. That this was the serpent in Eden, a talking snake. Well they did have a bounty of hallucinogenics back then, and of course this info would scare the dickens out of non book readers.

There was of course the Talmud
The gnostic.

http://gnosis.org/genesis.html
Little gnostic info for you:


http://gnosis.org/genesis.html

"The Serpent of Wisdom

The sin of Eve, so the orthodox tell us, was that she listened to the serpent, who persuaded her that the fruit of the tree would make her and Adam wise, without any deleterious side-effects. It was Eve who then seduced the righteously reluctant Adam to join her in this act of disobedience, and thus together they brought about the fall of humanity.

A Gnostic treatise, The Testimony of Truth, tells a different story. While repeating the words of the orthodox version of Genesis, the Gnostic source states that "the serpent was wiser than all the animals that were in Paradise." After extolling the wisdom of the serpent, the treatise casts serious aspersions on the creator: "What sort is he then, this God?" Then come some of the answers to the rhetorical question. The motive of the creator in punishing Adam was envy, for the creator envied Adam, who by eating the fruit would acquire knowledge (gnosis). Neither did the creator seem quite omniscient when he asked of Adam: "Where are you?" The creator has shown himself repeatedly to be "an envious slanderer," a jealous God, who inflicts cruel punishments on those who transgress his capricious orders and commandments. The treatise comments: "But these are the things he said (and did) to those who believe in him and serve him." The implication clearly presents itself that with a God like this, one needs no enemies. "


The homosexual gig - maybe a misinterpretation (aha) of beware of extremism. Although the more commonly read Leviticus would say na.

Have a good time by the way.

[Tempus]

By "top theologian" do you mean people like Kent Hovind?

There's much better theologians than him.