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July 10, 2012 at 5:24 pm (This post was last modified: July 10, 2012 at 5:25 pm by Mystic.)
1. Evil/Suffering
2. Bad design in nature, and in some features of humans.
3. Arguments against free-will.
4. God not showing himself in obvious undeniable fashion.
5. No guidance (only applicable if you don't believe guidance has been sent) [this argument is made by people whom believe in guidance, "if there was God, he would send us a form of guidance/communication", and it has some strong persuasion, see thread about "leadership" for example]
6. Imperfect World (similar to 1, but slightly different).
Made man gods just does not exists. If a 'kick starter' of the universe exists, but it doesn't care about Terra, why worship it? That is what I have to go by.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
July 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm (This post was last modified: July 10, 2012 at 5:36 pm by Tobie.)
Errors occurring in scripture, and church policies changing.
The fact that most religions have multiple sects.
Also, the slim likelihood of only one god existing given that gods could exist. If one can exist, why not many?
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world. - J.R.R Tolkien
(July 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm)Tobie Wrote: Also, the slim likelihood of only one god existing given that gods could exist. If one can exist, why not many?
^This.
When I was young, there was a god with infinite power protecting me. Is there anyone else who felt that way? And was sure about it? but the first time I fell in love, I was thrown down - or maybe I broke free - and I bade farewell to God and became human. Now I don't have God's protection, and I walk on the ground without wings, but I don't regret this hardship. I want to live as a person. -Arina Tanemura
July 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm (This post was last modified: July 10, 2012 at 5:50 pm by Mystic.)
(July 10, 2012 at 5:40 pm)Kayenneh Wrote:
(July 10, 2012 at 5:34 pm)Tobie Wrote: Also, the slim likelihood of only one god existing given that gods could exist. If one can exist, why not many?
^This.
I myself don't have an issue with other gods existing, gods are just beings that are to be honoured to the extent of worship. That's all they are.
However, logically, Ultimate Existence, cannot lack existence. And if lacks some existence, it would not be Ultimate Life. The same is true of it's qualities. If it lacked some power, some goodness, some compassion, some love, some mercy, it would not be ultimate love, power, compassion.
Whatever it is, all it's qualities that we call are in fact united in a single existence. The reason is, none of them would be ultimate qualities or perfections, were they not one, as they would lack the other qualities.
Now if there was two independent existences, one would lack what's in the other. They both would not be ultimate.
But if we know ultimate being exists, then necessarily he cannot lack existence.
So now you probably are thinking, what about creation? Well, creation then is a dependant existence, it borrows it's existence from God. Thus God lacks no life, the life of other beings is from him giving existence through his own existence. This doesn't mean God loses any existence.
Can there be "lesser" gods...sure why not...why can't creation reach the level of divinity? But the difference with God is that he is Value in itself, while everything else has to earn value.
So if there is gods, they would have struggle to reach that rank.
Perhaps us humans are on a journey towards divinity, perhaps, other creatures are also on that journey.
But I don't think finite creation can ever reach the level of Ultimate, because that has no limit, while creation is finite and limited.
(July 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However, logically, Ultimate Existence, cannot lack existence.
And if lacks some existence, it would not be Ultimate Life. The same is true of it's qualities.
If it lacked some power, some goodness, some compassion, some love, some mercy, it would not be ultimate love, power, compassion.
Whatever it is, all it's qualities that we call are in fact united in a single existence. The reason is, none of them would be ultimate qualities or perfections, were they not one, as they would lack the other qualities.
Now if there was two independent existences, one would lack what's in the other. They both would not be ultimate.
But if we know ultimate being exists, then necessarily he cannot lack existence.
So now you probably are thinking, what about creation? Well, creation then is a dependant existence, it borrows it's existence from God. Thus God lacks no life, the life of other beings is from him giving existence through his own existence. This doesn't mean God loses any existence.
Can there be "lesser" gods...sure why not...why can't creation reach the level of divinity? But the difference with God is that he is Value in itself, while everything else has to earn value.
So if there is gods, they would have struggle to reach that rank.
Perhaps us humans are on a journey towards divinity, perhaps, other creatures are also on that journey.
But I don't think finite creation can ever reach the level of Ultimate, because that has no limit, while creation is finite and limited.
I'm not sure what this is. A love poem to your god? A declaration of the same to all of us? Certainly not an appeal to us to join you in that love, 'cause that ain't gonna get it.
I feel a little dizzy from following you in circles. Ultimate must be ultimate because otherwise it wouldn't be ultimate. Ultimate must exist otherwise ultimate doesn't exist. I'm trying pretty hard here but you've completely lost me. Care to break it down?
(July 10, 2012 at 5:48 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: However, logically, Ultimate Existence, cannot lack existence.
And if lacks some existence, it would not be Ultimate Life. The same is true of it's qualities.
If it lacked some power, some goodness, some compassion, some love, some mercy, it would not be ultimate love, power, compassion.
Whatever it is, all it's qualities that we call are in fact united in a single existence. The reason is, none of them would be ultimate qualities or perfections, were they not one, as they would lack the other qualities.
Now if there was two independent existences, one would lack what's in the other. They both would not be ultimate.
But if we know ultimate being exists, then necessarily he cannot lack existence.
So now you probably are thinking, what about creation? Well, creation then is a dependant existence, it borrows it's existence from God. Thus God lacks no life, the life of other beings is from him giving existence through his own existence. This doesn't mean God loses any existence.
Can there be "lesser" gods...sure why not...why can't creation reach the level of divinity? But the difference with God is that he is Value in itself, while everything else has to earn value.
So if there is gods, they would have struggle to reach that rank.
Perhaps us humans are on a journey towards divinity, perhaps, other creatures are also on that journey.
But I don't think finite creation can ever reach the level of Ultimate, because that has no limit, while creation is finite and limited.
I'm not sure what this is. A love poem to your god? A declaration of the same to all of us? Certainly not an appeal to us to join you in that love, 'cause that ain't gonna get it.
I feel a little dizzy from following you in circles. Ultimate must be ultimate because otherwise it wouldn't be ultimate. Ultimate must exist otherwise ultimate doesn't exist. I'm trying pretty hard here but you've completely lost me. Care to break it down?
Well, it's not a proof of God, it's proof that God is Unique if you believe an Ultimate Being exists (for whatever reason).
(July 10, 2012 at 6:08 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: Well, it's not a proof of God, it's proof that God is Unique if you believe an Ultimate Being exists (for whatever reason).
That has always been one of things about which I've been most skeptical. Why ultimate anything? We grow up hearing omni this and omni that and trying to make sense of it. In your case, it seems to have gotten lodged into the very concept of godliness. Would camel herds really have needed a god of ultimate powers to be well and truly impressed? Hell we could probably have made a bigger impression with a movie full of special effects.
If we even suppose there is anything with a few tricks we have out there deserving of the god monicker, would it really have to be absolutely omni-everything? If so, why?
(July 10, 2012 at 6:23 pm)whateverist Wrote: That has always been one of things about which I've been most skeptical. Why ultimate anything?
Do you mean why believe in an ultimate being? Or do you mean why is the ultimate being ultimate?
Quote:We grow up hearing omni this and omni that and trying to make sense of it. In your case, it seems to have gotten lodged into the very concept of godliness. Would camel herds really have needed a god of ultimate powers to be well and truly impressed? Hell we could probably have made a bigger impression with a movie full of special effects.
If we even suppose there is anything with a few tricks we have out there deserving of the god monicker, would it really have to be absolutely omni-everything? If so, why?
Well, as I said, I don't have a problem with possibilities of others gods, I even think it is highly likely there exists beings worthy of worship, but they would have to be created and earn that rank, and would no where come close to that of the necessary being in which they derive their value from.
Dear Mystickight that so many people feel a need to prove the existence of a thing, is a very good proof it does not exist. I have not met many people desperately trying to prove the existence of my hat because it is there.
Actually my hat is not a hat, it is the picture of a hat.
It seems your desire to create a thing as you wish it to be inhibits your analysis of the evidence.
