What Heaven is Like

[Adjusted Sanity]

I've been watching stargate, and I'm liking the idea of ascension. Too bad Oma's busy right now so she can't help me.

[Godscreated]

IMO, you might as well work on improving the things you care about that you know will be there when you are gone - children, family, friends, community, reputation and so on.

Anyway, that´s my take on the whole afterlife business.

What you have mentioned is a great part of christian life.

[Minimalist]

IMO, you might as well work on improving the things you care about that you know will be there when you are gone - children, family, friends, community, reputation and so on.

Anyway, that´s my take on the whole afterlife business.

What you have mentioned is a great part of christian life.

uh-huh....

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/man-wv/T...NA6D90500S

Megachurch pastor Creflo Dollar was arrested in suburban Atlanta for an alleged assault on his 15-year-old daughter, police said Friday.

Deputies in Georgia's Fayette County responded to a call about a domestic disturbance about 1 a.m. Friday. Dollar's daughter said she argued with her father over attending a party, said Investigator Brent Rowan of the Fayette County Sheriff's Office.

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

The catholic church claims that most are catholic. Most don't believe that tripe. Which means they are not really catholic, the church is just padding its numbers while it hemorrhages its membership. The catholic church is in its death throes.

Um, no, statistically speaking most are Catholic. The Church doesn't "pad its numbers", the Church doesn't have some giant database of numbers of Catholics anywhere. Individual parishes track numbers but they have no incentive to pad numbers since those numbers determine how much money they owe to the archdiocese. Nice attempts at a no true scotsman though.

And lol, "death throes"? Oh geez.

http://theweek.com/article/index/202388/...-in-crisis

Catholics in crisis
Reeling from sex-abuse scandals, the Roman Catholic Church is losing members in droves. Can it stem the decline?

Yes, it does pad its numbers and it keeps rolls as well. Folks who leave stay on those rolls. And you are aware of this as well. It is not, as has already been pointed out to you, a no true scotsman. It is a matter of people having not gotten to the point of admitting the obvious. And it is not just MY assertion that the church considers folks who reject core tenets such as this transubstantiation bullshit as "not catholics", that is catholic church policy -- nice bit of cherry-picking there.

And, yes, the church is hemorrhaging membership. You are aware of this, too.
\

How severe is the crisis?
It’s “the largest institutional crisis in centuries, possibly in church history,” says the National Catholic Reporter. Worldwide, the Roman Catholic Church now has 1.1 billion members, compared with 1.5 billion Muslims and 593 million Protestants. In the U.S., all the major denominations have seen their numbers decline in recent years, but the Catholic Church has taken the biggest hit. Since the 1960s, four American-born Catholics have left the church for every one who has converted, according to a 2009 Pew study. In 2008 alone, Catholic membership declined by 400,000. More than 1,000 parishes have closed since 1995, and the number of priests has fallen from about 49,000 to 40,000 during that same period. Some 3,400 Catholic parishes in the U.S. now lack a resident priest. “Catholicism is in decline across America,” says sociologist David Carlin.

What about in Europe?
The situation there is even more dire, especially in the most historically devout countries. In 1991, 84 percent of the Irish population attended Mass at least once a week. Today the weekly attendance figure is less than 50 percent. In Spain, 81 percent of the population identifies itself as Catholic, but two-thirds say they seldom or never attend services. And the priest shortage is acute—in England and Wales, the church ordained only 16 clergy members in all of 2009.

What sparked this decline?
Its roots actually trace back to the 1960s, when a split developed over the reforms introduced by Pope John XXIII. Dismayed by the pope’s calls for more participation by laypeople in church affairs, many tradition-minded bishops and cardinals defended the centrality of Rome and frowned on the social activism of priests that was unleashed by the reforms, known as Vatican II. After Pope John’s death, in 1963, the traditionalists increased their power within the Vatican, culminating with the elevation of John Paul II to the papacy, in 1978. He undid many of his predecessor’s reforms, and millions of liberal Catholics drifted away, fed up with what they saw as Vatican authoritarianism as well as its unstinting opposition to abortion and artificial contraception.

Have the sex scandals hurt?
They’ve only accelerated the decline. In the mid-1990s, when the first wave of abuse charges surfaced, church attendance in the U.S. dropped, leveling off at around 35 percent of self-described Catholics. The new wave of scandals has perhaps struck an even deeper nerve, since it involves higher-level authorities—including Pope Benedict XVI himself—allegedly covering up abuses by allowing known pedophiles to continue to serve as priests and, in many cases, work with children. In Latin America, the church has been rocked by abuse scandals in Mexico and Brazil, even as it tries to stanch the flow of defectors to evangelical Protestant churches. In Germany, more than 1,200 people in just one city, Würzburg, quit the church in March, following a cascade of reports of sexual abuse and sadistic punishment of children in Catholic schools. In Ireland, government reports detailing decades of “endemic” abuse by clerics have turned many young people away from the church. “How can you believe in religion with all this going on?” asks Dubliner Adam Cunningham, 18.

Are there any bright spots?
Yes—Africa and Asia. The African church has grown from 55 million in 1978 to 150 million today. “The church has provided, in many cases, the voice that stands on behalf of the voiceless,” says the Rev. Emmanuel Katongole, a leader in the Ugandan church. In Asia, church membership increased 80 percent since 1978, while the number of priests rose 74 percent. In fact, Africa and Asia now supply priests to the rest of the world, with about 300 coming to U.S. parishes every year. But the church faces problems in the developing world, too. Evangelical Protestantism is making inroads, and many African priests live openly with wives and children, in defiance of the Vatican’s celibacy requirement.

Can the church reverse its slide?
Catholics of all stripes say yes, though many believe any revival would come from the bottom up. A growing movement in the U.S. is trying to re-establish the local parish—rather than Rome—as the center of Catholic life. In Renewing Parish Culture, Jesuit priest John Pideret argues that greater participation by women—who are barred from the priesthood—may be the key to a comeback. Looking back at the U.S. church in the 19th century, he says that with a greater role in parish life, nuns “made deft dynamic adjustments, recruited effectively, exercised financial realism, and promoted growth and competition.” Historian and journalist Garry Wills, a devout Catholic, also sees the church’s salvation coming from the pews. “The church is the people of God,” he says. “It’s the hierarchy that’s out of touch with the people of God, and they’ve got to get back in touch.”

Addition by subtraction
Not every Catholic is troubled by the church’s dwindling membership. According to some conservative priests and thinkers, the sex scandals and conflicts with the Vatican have shaken out the fair-weather believers. The conservatives want a return to the Latin Mass and an end to challenges to the Vatican’s authority. A return to tradition would likely result in “a smaller but much more fervent and evangelizing church,” says the Rev. John McCloskey, a former Wall Street executive who’s an outspoken advocate of the traditionalist movement. The shrinkage would be only temporary, he says, since as liberals left the church, it would be strengthened by the core of tradition-minded Catholics who obey the church’s ban on contraceptives and rear large families. Such families would inevitably produce more sons, some of whom would enter the priesthood. Thanks to a conservative renaissance, says McCloskey, “the church in America may well be on the cusp of a more vibrant era.”

[Minimalist]

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports/

While those Americans who are unaffiliated with any particular religion have seen the greatest growth in numbers as a result of changes in affiliation, Catholicism has experienced the greatest net losses as a result of affiliation changes. While nearly one-in-three Americans (31%) were raised in the Catholic faith, today fewer than one-in-four (24%) describe themselves as Catholic.

At least some Americans are catching on.

[Aiza]

Describe a day in Heaven then please.

Heaven is within the eternal present, so the concept of a "day" makes no sense. Heaven is constant adoration of God.

Why?

Hate causes suffering because it is contrary to goodness, and as humans we long for what is good in our hearts, it is how we are inclined.

That's pretty much how the god of the Bible operates.

No it isn't! If it were I don't think there would be any survivors, outside of Our Lord and Our Lady!

Reeling from sex-abuse scandals, the Roman Catholic Church is losing members in droves. Can it stem the decline?

Losing members in some nations != "In its death throes". That is where I have to roll my eyes.

Yes, it does pad its numbers and it keeps rolls as well. Folks who leave stay on those rolls.

No they don't. Every parish takes note of how many families it has every single year. A lot of atheists seem to think the only way to get off the "rolls" is to be formally excommunicated, but this isn't true of the Catholic Church, at least in the US. Any parish which tried to "pad its numbers" would only end up more in debt to the Archdiocese, so...they really have no incentive to pad their numbers outside of trying to maintain some nebulous bragging right to "largest Christian denomination"...I guess? We are really, really far away from losing that one though.

And it is not just MY assertion that the church considers folks who reject core tenets such as this transubstantiation bullshit as "not catholics", that is catholic church policy

No it isn't. It's poor catechesis, and, at worst, its heresy. But they are heretical Catholics. One of my Auxiliary Bishops advocates for female ordination. He's still a Catholic.

By definition, an atheist does not believe there is a god. Period. I don't know what kind of questions your referenced survey asked, so I can't really comment on it.

Looks like at least 21% of atheists would disagree with you there, Thor. Geez, I don't know who I am supposed to believe!

[Epimethean]

Looks like a certain would-be nun can't handle the truth. Oh, wait! Your job never could be handling the truth! LOLs. Just keep dancin', sista!

It lost over 1% of its membership in the U.S. alone over the last three years.

http://blog.al.com/birmingham-news-stori...on_de.html

[Gaest]

IMO, you might as well work on improving the things you care about that you know will be there when you are gone - children, family, friends, community, reputation and so on.

Anyway, that´s my take on the whole afterlife business.

What you have mentioned is a great part of christian life.

But I do it because I want people to Like me, not God.

You're not liking your odds at the prospect of joining the Einherjar in Ragnarok?

Lol, no.. I´ll take my chances elsewhere

[Mister Agenda]

Plenty of people would "disagree" with me. I am not talking to an annihilationist right now, but if I were I would tell them. "Do what I say or I will kill you" is a non-choice, at least within traditional Christianity.

How do you make out that 'Do what I say or I won't let you stay dead' is not also a non-choice?

---

Maybe you did and maybe you didn't. I've had atheists tell me a lot of things you might disagree with. I can only speak for the majority of Christians here in that no, non-belief is not a "one way ticket to eternity in a firepit" or whatever you are on about.

So you don't read GC's posts at all?

[LastPoet]

Even if hell is defined as the lack of the carrot, the reward system is still there. It is my view that one shouldn't base his morality upon a reward system. In vague and simple terms, one os commendable doing good things, not because of a reward, but because one wills to.