Is becoming like God good or evil?

[Godscreated]

Sorry, who the fuck are you to say I misunderstood? Because I haven't arrived at the same conclusion as you I *must* have misread the text right? Yours couldn't *possibly* be the incorrect interpretation. Is that how you came to the idea I haven't studied? Because I don't give answers you like? Do you even understand the level of arrogance you're operating from? Frankly the idea of you accusing anyone of cherry picking is laughable.
Anyway, enough of your sidetracking:

Your statements contradict, if God knew the outcome then he presented a "choice" that negated freewill. Because he knew the outcome he knew that his instructions and his choice to place the tree would lead irrevocably to the destination it would.
If the outcome is known then it is no longer a choice but a machination. Being aware of this machination, this series of events of his own design that would inevitably arise from how he chose to act he went through with it anyway.
God was presented with a choice to spare his children a traumatizing experience or subject them to it, the only real choice in the story.
He chose the latter. These are the events the Bible shows if his omnipotence is to be believed.
In which case it isn't me who isn't making sense, it is the Bible, the concept of omnipotence or both and I am merely demonstrating this.
Please show me if you find anything to be a leap in logic here.

... :-)

God was not presented with a choice, that's like saying a teacher giving a test is presented with a choice, when in actuality it is the one taking the test who has to make a choice when answering the question. If the one taking the test gives some wrong answers then the score will reflect the wrong choices, a punishment of sorts. If the one who takes the test is traumatized, it's not the teachers fault, the one who takes the test should have listened to what was being taught. The one taking the test knew the consequences of not listening, the responsibility falls on the one taking the test. You can bet the teacher already has an idea of how well the one taking the test will do.
Now the teacher could have taken the test or just given the student a good score without giving the test, tell me what would be accomplished by that.

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Agreed God is omniscient, agreed God knew they would disobey Him by eating the fruit, agreed He knows how everything will turn out.
Adam and Eve had no idea how things would go, at first they had no desire to eat the fruit, they enjoyed walking with God in the cool of the evening. God enjoyed the love they had for Him, and why not we all do. The greatest love they showed for God was obeying the one commandment He gave them, the fruit was there because of love, they had the freedom to disobey and fall or obey and continue in grace. Well we all know how it turned out. It was not a test, never was meant to be, it had to be there for Adam and Eve to show total love for God.

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"Agreed God is omniscient" was your quote and also your problem.

The Bible you were trying to jam down Crate's throat states in Genesis 3:9 that your god couldn't find Adam. You either have to admit that your god isn't omniscient or he took a time out to play a good game of hide-and-seek before doling out the punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge.

I'm not trying to jam anything down anyone's throat, all I'm saying if you do not study the scriptures don't cherry pick. It's apparent that you like to try and turn the scriptures to your favor by doing away with any reasoning at all. Let's take a look at the situation you brought up in Genesis. God says He is omniscient and that said why would you think He did not know where Adam and Eve were hiding. Of course He did, He called out to them as a father calls out to a child who has done wrong, God's showing His love for them, He did not rush in screaming, He actually gave them a chance to explain themselves. They then made things worse by placing the blame on others, this showed they had now learned evil.

[Godscreated]

G C

"No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want?"

If man had this free choice, then are commands not something that goes against free choice?
Is it not saying you are free to choose except for the things I tell you not to choose?

Further, if all they were doing is exercising their free willed choice, why did God throw such a fit against them and all of mankind and the earth itself with his curses?
Why did he throw a fit when they did their will and not his?

In fact, why did he kill A & E because of their free willed choice?

Your God only says that they are free to do as told does he not?

Regards
DL

Without limits where is the choice. God did not throw a fit, you just want to read it that way. God did not kill them they died of extremely old age.

[Faith No More]

Why couldn't god have tested Adam and Eve's loyalty with a normal tree? The end result is the same, knowing A&E disobyed him, yet it wouldn't have condemned every human from there on as a filthy sinner in need of a blood sacrifice for salvation.

[Reforged]

Sorry, who the fuck are you to say I misunderstood? Because I haven't arrived at the same conclusion as you I *must* have misread the text right? Yours couldn't *possibly* be the incorrect interpretation. Is that how you came to the idea I haven't studied? Because I don't give answers you like? Do you even understand the level of arrogance you're operating from? Frankly the idea of you accusing anyone of cherry picking is laughable.
Anyway, enough of your sidetracking:

Your statements contradict, if God knew the outcome then he presented a "choice" that negated freewill. Because he knew the outcome he knew that his instructions and his choice to place the tree would lead irrevocably to the destination it would.
If the outcome is known then it is no longer a choice but a machination. Being aware of this machination, this series of events of his own design that would inevitably arise from how he chose to act he went through with it anyway.
God was presented with a choice to spare his children a traumatizing experience or subject them to it, the only real choice in the story.
He chose the latter. These are the events the Bible shows if his omnipotence is to be believed.
In which case it isn't me who isn't making sense, it is the Bible, the concept of omnipotence or both and I am merely demonstrating this.
Please show me if you find anything to be a leap in logic here.

... :-)

God was not presented with a choice, that's like saying a teacher giving a test is presented with a choice, when in actuality it is the one taking the test who has to make a choice when answering the question. If the one taking the test gives some wrong answers then the score will reflect the wrong choices, a punishment of sorts. If the one who takes the test is traumatized, it's not the teachers fault, the one who takes the test should have listened to what was being taught. The one taking the test knew the consequences of not listening, the responsibility falls on the one taking the test. You can bet the teacher already has an idea of how well the one taking the test will do.
Now the teacher could have taken the test or just given the student a good score without giving the test, tell me what would be accomplished by that.

Some major flaws in that comparison:
1. The Teacher does not know with certainty the result.
2. By all accounts God does not have an exam board dictating his actions.
3. Exams last a specified amount of time, this "test" did not. The time remaining was eternal making a pass impossible.
4. If a student fails then a teacher will alter their teaching technique according to the type of student. They do not expel them from the school after one fail.
5. God did not offer them any education as to why the tree was important, what its function was and what its placement was meant to teach them. This is the opposite to the teachers approach as it offers minimal information.
6. If a teachers lessons are so harsh and cruel that it traumatizes the student then it *is* the teachers fault and they should not be allowed to teach, period.

All and all your comparison bares little, if any, in the way of similarity.
I would strongly advise finding another and trying again if you wish to continue this debate with any kind of consistency to your argument.

The fact of the matter is if God is omnipotent then it couldn't be further from the truth to say that placing the tree wasn't a choice. On the contrary, *nobody* has more choice. This means that he could of altered his approach to be more merciful and at the same time teach the lesson he wished to teach. He knew the future and therefore was capable of altering it.
He did not, this requires explanation.
If he is not omnipotent then this would explain his lack of foresight but it also means he can't know everything and therefore he does have limitations.
You cannot have it both ways unless you say this is the outcome he wished and I think you know it.

[Godscreated]

Why couldn't god have tested Adam and Eve's loyalty with a normal tree? The end result is the same, knowing A&E disobyed him, yet it wouldn't have condemned every human from there on as a filthy sinner in need of a blood sacrifice for salvation.

The end result would not have been the same, 1) Lucifer was interested in only in destroying Gods creation, 2) this could have only been done by knowledge of good and evil entering it, 3) Lucifer did not care about Adam and Eve, his only interest in them was to use them to complete his evil work, thus condemning them to spiritual and physical death, 4) without becoming knowledgeable of good and evil Adam and Eve would not have understood what their sin meant. So a normal tree would not have had the same results.

[Norfolk And Chance]

Why couldn't god have tested Adam and Eve's loyalty with a normal tree? The end result is the same, knowing A&E disobyed him, yet it wouldn't have condemned every human from there on as a filthy sinner in need of a blood sacrifice for salvation.

The end result would not have been the same, 1) Lucifer was interested in only in destroying Gods creation, 2) this could have only been done by knowledge of good and evil entering it, 3) Lucifer did not care about Adam and Eve, his only interest in them was to use them to complete his evil work, thus condemning them to spiritual and physical death, 4) without becoming knowledgeable of good and evil Adam and Eve would not have understood what their sin meant. So a normal tree would not have had the same results.

It's all made up, pal.

[Faith No More]

The end result would not have been the same, 1) Lucifer was interested in only in destroying Gods creation, 2) this could have only been done by knowledge of good and evil entering it, 3) Lucifer did not care about Adam and Eve, his only interest in them was to use them to complete his evil work, thus condemning them to spiritual and physical death, 4) without becoming knowledgeable of good and evil Adam and Eve would not have understood what their sin meant. So a normal tree would not have had the same results.

But those are all Satan's actions. Surely god would have been able to come up with a fool proof plan, unless of course.....Yes! That's it. God wanted it to happen that way, so not only did he have a broken creation that required his salvation but he blamed the creation for his failures.

It's brilliant. Brilliantly sadistic, that is.

[Godscreated]

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The end result would not have been the same, 1) Lucifer was interested in only in destroying Gods creation, 2) this could have only been done by knowledge of good and evil entering it, 3) Lucifer did not care about Adam and Eve, his only interest in them was to use them to complete his evil work, thus condemning them to spiritual and physical death, 4) without becoming knowledgeable of good and evil Adam and Eve would not have understood what their sin meant. So a normal tree would not have had the same results.

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But those are all Satan's actions. Surely god would have been able to come up with a fool proof plan, unless of course.....Yes! That's it. God wanted it to happen that way, so not only did he have a broken creation that required his salvation but he blamed the creation for his failures.

It's brilliant. Brilliantly sadistic, that is.

The plan could not have been made fool proof or any other proof, this would have eliminated choice, the choice to obey, this was God's plan, to give man freedom to choose. God did not want it to happen the way it did, He allowed man through choice to set the future.

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God was not presented with a choice, that's like saying a teacher giving a test is presented with a choice, when in actuality it is the one taking the test who has to make a choice when answering the question. If the one taking the test gives some wrong answers then the score will reflect the wrong choices, a punishment of sorts. If the one who takes the test is traumatized, it's not the teachers fault, the one who takes the test should have listened to what was being taught. The one taking the test knew the consequences of not listening, the responsibility falls on the one taking the test. You can bet the teacher already has an idea of how well the one taking the test will do.
Now the teacher could have taken the test or just given the student a good score without giving the test, tell me what would be accomplished by that.

---

Some major flaws in that comparison:
1. The Teacher does not know with certainty the result.

You can bet the teacher has a good idea what the results will be, close enough to fit well into the comparison.

2. By all accounts God does not have an exam board dictating his actions.

God's omniscient and doesn't need a board, what does your statement have to do with this argument.

3. Exams last a specified amount of time, this "test" did not. The time remaining was eternal making a pass impossible.

Time has nothing to do with this, you're trying to divert this discussion with nonsense, you can not know that they could not have continued to obey God forever.

4. If a student fails then a teacher will alter their teaching technique according to the type of student. They do not expel them from the school after one fail.

The punishments are different because the situations are different, quit trying to side track.

5. God did not offer them any education as to why the tree was important, what its function was and what its placement was meant to teach them. This is the opposite to the teachers approach as it offers minimal information.

God gave them all the knowledge they needed at creation, they understood the consequences of their disobedience, Eve told the serpent so.

6. If a teachers lessons are so harsh and cruel that it traumatizes the student then it *is* the teachers fault and they should not be allowed to teach, period.

The test do not have to be harsh, if a student fails the test it's the students fault. If you're trying to say that Adam and Eve was traumatized you need to bring proof.

All and all your comparison bares little, if any, in the way of similarity.
I would strongly advise finding another and trying again if you wish to continue this debate with any kind of consistency to your argument.

The fact of the matter is if God is omnipotent then it couldn't be further from the truth to say that placing the tree wasn't a choice. On the contrary, *nobody* has more choice. This means that he could of altered his approach to be more merciful and at the same time teach the lesson he wished to teach. He knew the future and therefore was capable of altering it.
He did not, this requires explanation.
If he is not omnipotent then this would explain his lack of foresight but it also means he can't know everything and therefore he does have limitations.
You cannot have it both ways unless you say this is the outcome he wished and I think you know it.

God does what He knows to be right, since He is righteous He had no choice He had to place the tree there. God saw the future that man was to make, the future was not of God's making, it's God who is working to straighten out man's mess. This was not God's desire, He however was not going to force man to do what He desired, He allowed man to have the choice. I don't need it both ways, I accept what has happened and trust God to straighten this mess out in His omniscient wisdom.

[Greatest I am]

G C

"No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want?"

If man had this free choice, then are commands not something that goes against free choice?
Is it not saying you are free to choose except for the things I tell you not to choose?

Further, if all they were doing is exercising their free willed choice, why did God throw such a fit against them and all of mankind and the earth itself with his curses?
Why did he throw a fit when they did their will and not his?

In fact, why did he kill A & E because of their free willed choice?

Your God only says that they are free to do as told does he not?

Regards
DL

Without limits where is the choice. God did not throw a fit, you just want to read it that way. God did not kill them they died of extremely old age.

They died because God denied them access to the tree of life.
That is murder to any man with half a brain.

As to the limits of A & E's free will. They had no free will as shown the first time they did their will and not God's.

Yes he threw a fit all over them.

Regards
DL

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Why couldn't god have tested Adam and Eve's loyalty with a normal tree? The end result is the same, knowing A&E disobyed him, yet it wouldn't have condemned every human from there on as a filthy sinner in need of a blood sacrifice for salvation.

It is the Christian need to blame someone else for what they do.

That is what scapegoating is all about and why it is immoral.

Regards
DL

[Godscreated]

Without limits where is the choice. God did not throw a fit, you just want to read it that way. God did not kill them they died of extremely old age.

They died because God denied them access to the tree of life.
That is murder to any man with half a brain.

As to the limits of A & E's free will. They had no free will as shown the first time they did their will and not God's.

Yes he threw a fit all over them.

Regards
DL

They died because they disobeyed God, God told them the consequences of their disobedience and He was true to His word. Why you can not see something so simple is beyond understanding.
God did not allow them to eat of the Tree of Life because they would have lived forever in sin and been without any chance to escape the consequences of such a miserable life, God through His grace had mercy on them.
It's simply astounding how irresponsible the way you see scripture reads, even a child can discern scripture better than you can.