“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” ~ Matthew 5:48


Is there any bigger bull shit verse in the entire bible? I submit that there is not.

#1 - All our righteousness is as "filthy rags" to god. The bible (god's supposed word) regularly drills it into us that we are so far from perfect that he actually had to offer himself up as a blood sacrifice to save our pathetic sinful selves. Perfect isn't even a possibility for us and the Bible regularly makes that very clear. Huge contradiction (one of many).

#2 - Father in heaven is perfect?!? Umm, all evidence points to the contrary. For christs sake he drowned the entire world when he realized he'd fucked up. Later on he wanted to commit genocide again but an "imperfect human" talked him out of it. Yahweh is so far from perfect that its difficult not to shoot milk out of your nose while doing a spit-take when reading Matthew 5:48 (assuming one was drinking milk at the time).

It's a stupid fairy tale for weak pathetic people. I can't answer the OP because I don't strive to be like angry mythological beings in my life. You might as well ask me if it's right or wrong for me to attempt to be like Mr. Tumnus.

(July 8, 2012 at 3:05 am)Minimalist Wrote:

Quote:Why do theists keep calling god their father anyway?

They have limited intellects.

Because they are the sort of shit so low that they aspire up towards what real people look down upon - being daddy's boys

(July 13, 2012 at 11:08 am)Cinjin Wrote: “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” ~ Matthew 5:48


Is there any bigger bull shit verse in the entire bible? I submit that there is not.

#1 - All our righteousness is as "filthy rags" to god. The bible (god's supposed word) regularly drills it into us that we are so far from perfect that he actually had to offer himself up as a blood sacrifice to save our pathetic sinful selves. Perfect isn't even a possibility for us and the Bible regularly makes that very clear. Huge contradiction (one of many).

#2 - Father in heaven is perfect?!? Umm, all evidence points to the contrary. For christs sake he drowned the entire world when he realized he'd fucked up. Later on he wanted to commit genocide again but an "imperfect human" talked him out of it. Yahweh is so far from perfect that its difficult not to shoot milk out of your nose while doing a spit-take when reading Matthew 5:48 (assuming one was drinking milk at the time).

It's a stupid fairy tale for weak pathetic people. I can't answer the OP because I don't strive to be like angry mythological beings in my life. You might as well ask me if it's right or wrong for me to attempt to be like Mr. Tumnus.

No argument and yes, the bible can be made to say almost anything thanks to all the contradictions.

Regards
DL

(July 11, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:

---

Reading is not the same as studying, people hear say I just read scientific stuff without studying so if the atheist community here is setting the standard it needs to be applied to all works. If you do not like being called out on your lack of Biblical knowledge you should study and not just read.
Agreed God is omniscient, agreed God knew they would disobey Him by eating the fruit, agreed He knows how everything will turn out.
Adam and Eve had no idea how things would go, at first they had no desire to eat the fruit, they enjoyed walking with God in the cool of the evening. God enjoyed the love they had for Him, and why not we all do. The greatest love they showed for God was obeying the one commandment He gave them, the fruit was there because of love, they had the freedom to disobey and fall or obey and continue in grace. Well we all know how it turned out. It was not a test, never was meant to be, it had to be there for Adam and Eve to show total love for God.

Yes God wants us to try to live as close as we can to His perfect standard. Because we have the knowledge of good and evil is why God has to ask us to live close to His perfect standard, if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God then there would be no need in Him asking us to live close to His standard. We would be doing that, unless someone else disobeyed God's commandment.
Placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden was not for a task as you put it, it was there because God wanted Adam and Eve and everyone else to love Him through obedience. Just like parents want their children to show love to them by obeying them. Obedience is trust and I do not know of a greater way to show love to others than through trust.
No one has lied nor deceived.

---

RD Wrote:I was under the impression reading is a form of study and read I have on numerous subjects not least of all religion. The Bible is a book I have read on the subject. I also took RE as an applied subject for five years and was raised by a catholic mother. What particular form of study have you undergone that gives you better insight? Scientists at first learn through reading, discussion and lectures, they later learn from experiments which successfully apply what they have learned. I have read about, discussed and attended lectures on religion. Seen as religion doesn't have an equivalent to experimentation what are you suggesting? You can't possibly accuse me of lacking knowledge if you don't outline what that knowledge is and where it comes from. Otherwise its a statement without any meaning behind it, you'd be calling me ignorant for the sake of

We someone says they read something I'm going to take it they read through and did not bother to understand what the literature means, and I find that most nonbelievers do just that. Cherry picking through scriptures to find something they believe will support their POV, they do not bother to search scriptures to find the true meanings, then I have to do that for them, maybe their just lazy.
What you described above is studying, studying also involves listening to those who have greater knowledge of a subject and then checking it out, this is one of the primary ways I study. Also going to sources that are reliable to help determine the meaning of ancient languages, those written by scholars of that field.

RD Wrote:If what you say is true then the only reason he put the apple there was to experience temporary worship and control over those he had created. He knew they would take it and he knew he would cast them out as a result into a land of suffering where they would wither and die. He knew this yet he still went through with it just so he could have his own personal fan club for a while before disowning them due to a circumstance of his own creation.
These are the implications of what you have just written, how is this not a despicable being?

No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want? How is it you can say God created that situation and say you have studied scripture. According to the scriptures the creation was perfect, why would God create a perfect situation and then destroy it, you make no sense in your argument.
Adam and Eve knew the consequences for their disobedience, death, and they understood what God was saying, a spiritual and physical death, God created man with knowledge, just why would God give people conditions and not give them the ability to understand. If one believes that God would do that one is either not reasoning or they just do not care, and if the later, do not need to be in a discussion on the subject. God would be despicable if He had not given choice to us, and just made us His little robots. Is this the way you would want to live, under the thumb of a god who would make you do what He wanted, if God wanted to keep control over man He would have done just that to man.

RD Wrote:He knew this obedience wouldn't be given forever, he knew it like he supposedly knows everything. If what unfolded unfolded then it could not of unfolded any other way, in a universe where omnipotence is possible freewill is not. He made the decision to put the apple there knowing where it would lead and put it there anyway. The victims of these machinations would not be to blame, it would be the one who designed them and the guilt would rest entirely with him. A parent would not do this to their child, it would be cruelty of the highest degree. Obedience is not trust. You trust in friends, you trust in family and in mentors. You do not serve them. Obedience is what a slave would have for his master. If you do not believe me you should look up the two definitions and see how they look side by side.

God did not design any situation, yes He knew the outcome, but He did no force them to disobey. Your trying to say God is a game fixer, a game fixer makes sure the game turns out the way He wants it, there is no choice. If God were a game fixer He would have made sure the outcome would be one where the world would stay in a perfect state, as He created it, this is a reasonable conclusion. He would have removed all the hardship He had to deal with on man's behalf, He wouldn't have made the plan that caused His Son's death, a death he suffered because of sin, it was a death by sin.
So every parent that does not child proof their home to the point a child does not have to be told about anything that could harm them is cruel to the highest degree, this is the comparison you are making.
Your lack of understanding of obedience surprises me. Obedience is trust, when a child obeys the parent it is trusting in the parent to be right. Obedience is a two way street of love, a parent tells a child not to do a thing to protect the child, this is done in love for the child, and in obedience to the parent the child shows love for the parent, trusting the parent is correct in tell him/her not to do something that would hurt the child. You see I do know what obedience and trust are, they are tied together by love.

RD Wrote:I will put the query to you more clearly with what you've written taken into account:
Why would a loving God set a course of events he knew would cause pain and suffering to his creations for the sake of temporary servility from them?
If creating a being like him was his goal why did he not simply create beings like him to begin with?
I don't know is an acceptable answer if that is the only one you can honestly say you have.

I do not have to say I do not know, I've showed this by my above statements, you seem to be trying to encourage me to concede on all points, why is this, I know it's not because I do not understand the details and truth of this discussion.

(July 11, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Godschild Wrote: Agreed God is omniscient, agreed God knew they would disobey Him by eating the fruit, agreed He knows how everything will turn out.
Adam and Eve had no idea how things would go, at first they had no desire to eat the fruit, they enjoyed walking with God in the cool of the evening. God enjoyed the love they had for Him, and why not we all do. The greatest love they showed for God was obeying the one commandment He gave them, the fruit was there because of love, they had the freedom to disobey and fall or obey and continue in grace. Well we all know how it turned out. It was not a test, never was meant to be, it had to be there for Adam and Eve to show total love for God.

In your reply after this you basically told Crate to read the Bible.

"Agreed God is omniscient" was your quote and also your poblem.

The Bible you were trying to jam down Crate's throat states in Genesis 3:9 that your god couldn't find Adam. You either have to admit that your god isn't omniscient or he took a time out to play a good game of hide-and-seek before doling out the punishment for eating from the tree of knowledge.

G C

"No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want?"

If man had this free choice, then are commands not something that goes against free choice?
Is it not saying you are free to choose except for the things I tell you not to choose?

Further, if all they were doing is exercising their free willed choice, why did God throw such a fit against them and all of mankind and the earth itself with his curses?
Why did he throw a fit when they did their will and not his?

In fact, why did he kill A & E because of their free willed choice?

Your God only says that they are free to do as told does he not?

Regards
DL

(July 13, 2012 at 8:42 pm)Godschild Wrote:

(July 12, 2012 at 9:39 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote:

(July 11, 2012 at 11:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:

---

Reading is not the same as studying, people hear say I just read scientific stuff without studying so if the atheist community here is setting the standard it needs to be applied to all works. If you do not like being called out on your lack of Biblical knowledge you should study and not just read.
Agreed God is omniscient, agreed God knew they would disobey Him by eating the fruit, agreed He knows how everything will turn out.
Adam and Eve had no idea how things would go, at first they had no desire to eat the fruit, they enjoyed walking with God in the cool of the evening. God enjoyed the love they had for Him, and why not we all do. The greatest love they showed for God was obeying the one commandment He gave them, the fruit was there because of love, they had the freedom to disobey and fall or obey and continue in grace. Well we all know how it turned out. It was not a test, never was meant to be, it had to be there for Adam and Eve to show total love for God.

Yes God wants us to try to live as close as we can to His perfect standard. Because we have the knowledge of good and evil is why God has to ask us to live close to His perfect standard, if Adam and Eve had not disobeyed God then there would be no need in Him asking us to live close to His standard. We would be doing that, unless someone else disobeyed God's commandment.
Placing the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden was not for a task as you put it, it was there because God wanted Adam and Eve and everyone else to love Him through obedience. Just like parents want their children to show love to them by obeying them. Obedience is trust and I do not know of a greater way to show love to others than through trust.
No one has lied nor deceived.

---

RD Wrote:I was under the impression reading is a form of study and read I have on numerous subjects not least of all religion. The Bible is a book I have read on the subject. I also took RE as an applied subject for five years and was raised by a catholic mother. What particular form of study have you undergone that gives you better insight? Scientists at first learn through reading, discussion and lectures, they later learn from experiments which successfully apply what they have learned. I have read about, discussed and attended lectures on religion. Seen as religion doesn't have an equivalent to experimentation what are you suggesting? You can't possibly accuse me of lacking knowledge if you don't outline what that knowledge is and where it comes from. Otherwise its a statement without any meaning behind it, you'd be calling me ignorant for the sake of

We someone says they read something I'm going to take it they read through and did not bother to understand what the literature means, and I find that most nonbelievers do just that. Cherry picking through scriptures to find something they believe will support their POV, they do not bother to search scriptures to find the true meanings, then I have to do that for them, maybe their just lazy.
What you described above is studying, studying also involves listening to those who have greater knowledge of a subject and then checking it out, this is one of the primary ways I study. Also going to sources that are reliable to help determine the meaning of ancient languages, those written by scholars of that field.

RD Wrote:If what you say is true then the only reason he put the apple there was to experience temporary worship and control over those he had created. He knew they would take it and he knew he would cast them out as a result into a land of suffering where they would wither and die. He knew this yet he still went through with it just so he could have his own personal fan club for a while before disowning them due to a circumstance of his own creation.
These are the implications of what you have just written, how is this not a despicable being?

No, the reason God placed the tree in the Garden was to allow man to have a choice. If God had not done that then all would be nothing more than God's little robots, is that what you would really want? How is it you can say God created that situation and say you have studied scripture. According to the scriptures the creation was perfect, why would God create a perfect situation and then destroy it, you make no sense in your argument.
Adam and Eve knew the consequences for their disobedience, death, and they understood what God was saying, a spiritual and physical death, God created man with knowledge, just why would God give people conditions and not give them the ability to understand. If one believes that God would do that one is either not reasoning or they just do not care, and if the later, do not need to be in a discussion on the subject. God would be despicable if He had not given choice to us, and just made us His little robots. Is this the way you would want to live, under the thumb of a god who would make you do what He wanted, if God wanted to keep control over man He would have done just that to man.

RD Wrote:He knew this obedience wouldn't be given forever, he knew it like he supposedly knows everything. If what unfolded unfolded then it could not of unfolded any other way, in a universe where omnipotence is possible freewill is not. He made the decision to put the apple there knowing where it would lead and put it there anyway. The victims of these machinations would not be to blame, it would be the one who designed them and the guilt would rest entirely with him. A parent would not do this to their child, it would be cruelty of the highest degree. Obedience is not trust. You trust in friends, you trust in family and in mentors. You do not serve them. Obedience is what a slave would have for his master. If you do not believe me you should look up the two definitions and see how they look side by side.

God did not design any situation, yes He knew the outcome, but He did no force them to disobey. Your trying to say God is a game fixer, a game fixer makes sure the game turns out the way He wants it, there is no choice. If God were a game fixer He would have made sure the outcome would be one where the world would stay in a perfect state, as He created it, this is a reasonable conclusion. He would have removed all the hardship He had to deal with on man's behalf, He wouldn't have made the plan that caused His Son's death, a death he suffered because of sin, it was a death by sin.
So every parent that does not child proof their home to the point a child does not have to be told about anything that could harm them is cruel to the highest degree, this is the comparison you are making.
Your lack of understanding of obedience surprises me. Obedience is trust, when a child obeys the parent it is trusting in the parent to be right. Obedience is a two way street of love, a parent tells a child not to do a thing to protect the child, this is done in love for the child, and in obedience to the parent the child shows love for the parent, trusting the parent is correct in tell him/her not to do something that would hurt the child. You see I do know what obedience and trust are, they are tied together by love.

RD Wrote:I will put the query to you more clearly with what you've written taken into account:
Why would a loving God set a course of events he knew would cause pain and suffering to his creations for the sake of temporary servility from them?
If creating a being like him was his goal why did he not simply create beings like him to begin with?
I don't know is an acceptable answer if that is the only one you can honestly say you have.

I do not have to say I do not know, I've showed this by my above statements, you seem to be trying to encourage me to concede on all points, why is this, I know it's not because I do not understand the details and truth of this discussion.

Sorry, who the fuck are you to say I misunderstood? Because I haven't arrived at the same conclusion as you I *must* have misread the text right? Yours couldn't *possibly* be the incorrect interpretation. Is that how you came to the idea I haven't studied? Because I don't give answers you like? Do you even understand the level of arrogance you're operating from? Frankly the idea of you accusing anyone of cherry picking is laughable.
Anyway, enough of your sidetracking:

Your statements contradict, if God knew the outcome then he presented a "choice" that negated freewill. Because he knew the outcome he knew that his instructions and his choice to place the tree would lead irrevocably to the destination it would.
If the outcome is known then it is no longer a choice but a machination. Being aware of this machination, this series of events of his own design that would inevitably arise from how he chose to act he went through with it anyway.
God was presented with a choice to spare his children a traumatizing experience or subject them to it, the only real choice in the story.
He chose the latter. These are the events the Bible shows if his omnipotence is to be believed.
In which case it isn't me who isn't making sense, it is the Bible, the concept of omnipotence or both and I am merely demonstrating this.
Please show me if you find anything to be a leap in logic here.

... :-)

(July 15, 2012 at 4:01 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: If man had this free choice, then are commands not something that goes against free choice?
Is it not saying you are free to choose except for the things I tell you not to choose?

Further, if all they were doing is exercising their free willed choice, why did God throw such a fit against them and all of mankind and the earth itself with his curses?
Why did he throw a fit when they did their will and not his?

In fact, why did he kill A & E because of their free willed choice?

Your God only says that they are free to do as told does he not?

You make it sound as if free choice is the greatest good in the world, and that's all God should be satisfied with. Actually, the freedom to choose good or bad makes the good all the more potent and worthwhile. Without freedom we are not living, thinking beings--we are systems. God did not create us merely to do good actions, as a robot would do. He created is for love. He, like all of us, desires relationships with other intelligent beings. If we love God and sin, that is far better than doing good without love. In fact, without intelligence there is no right or wrong because there lies no thought behind the action. Only when we are given free choice does morality enter the equation.

(July 15, 2012 at 10:31 pm)Undeceived Wrote: You make it sound as if free choice is the greatest good in the world, and that's all God should be satisfied with. Actually, the freedom to choose good or bad makes the good all the more potent and worthwhile. Without freedom we are not living, thinking beings--we are systems. God did not create us merely to do good actions, as a robot would do. He created is for love. He, like all of us, desires relationships with other intelligent beings. If we love God and sin, that is far better than doing good without love. In fact, without intelligence there is no right or wrong because there lies no thought behind the action. Only when we are given free choice does morality enter the equation.

Uh, was this a screed meant to satisfy the belivers? Im confused now. The Yoda-esque: "He created is for love" quote is actually quite confusing in context. I would like to consider myself understanding in that I'm not a grammar or spelling freak, but I'm at a loss here.

Undeceived Wrote:He, like all of us, desires relationships with other intelligent beings.

This is an oddly human characteristic for a deity to have.