Both groups feel the other side is dishonest?

[Annik]

Denail is a form of cognitive dissonance, correct?
That is, you face the truth head on but fail to absorb the evidence?
It would appear that a person of this sort would know they are being dishonest, but supressing this thought. This isn't "uniwtting" dishonesty, this is supressed, knowing dishonesty.
I think my contention is derived from how I think of the word, "dishonest". It could just be a personal stigma on the word, but it seems that dishonesty is a deliberate action that must be taken at some point or another, rather than a state of mind like you are suggesting.

Kind of. Cognitive dissonance is more referring to reconciling our denial, rather than the denial itself. Very, very similar, but not the same.

While on the topic of CD, religion requires a fair bit of it. I think the moderate religious person has the most, because they will accept their religious dogma and simultaneously accept things that work against it. Reconciling the two must be a source of great mental discomfort, which is where CD comes into play. While the person with massive amounts of CD isn't really lying in the traditional sense, they are being dishonest. They're not acting genuinely. I think this falls under my shallow understanding of Bad Faith, but other free agents are welcome to correct me if I'm misunderstanding. The religious are not the only ones who can be objects in the world, however. I feel like dishonestly should be decided on an individual basis, rather than a stereotypical one.

[Skepsis]

Kind of. Cognitive dissonance is more referring to reconciling our denial, rather than the denial itself. Very, very similar, but not the same.

Well, you learn something new every day.

While on the topic of CD, religion requires a fair bit of it. I think the moderate religious person has the most, because they will accept their religious dogma and simultaneously accept things that work against it. Reconciling the two must be a source of great mental discomfort, which is where CD comes into play. While the person with massive amounts of CD isn't really lying in the traditional sense, they are being dishonest.

I might have contested the idea that moderately religious people tend to have the most CD, but while thinking about it I had a thought come to me; I hypotheized the devout would have more CD seeing as they were constantly reminded of the flaws in the Bible, but there is another term for those who believe two contradicting concepts, isn't there? An internal type of denial where the denier isn't aware of the contradiction?
Doublethink. I did end up remembering it.

[Annik]

I might have contested the idea that moderately religious people tend to have the most CD, but while thinking about it I had a thought come to me; I hypotheized the devout would have more CD seeing as they were constantly reminded of the flaws in the Bible, but there is another term for those who believe two contradicting concepts, isn't there? An internal type of denial where the denier isn't aware of the contradiction?
Doublethink. I did end up remembering it.

You're free to contest as you will, I'm not the end-all-be-all of anything by myself (and even the, can I really be sure?).

I believe it's different for the devout. They feel as if scientists are lying to them, so they don't think their evidence at face value. Moderates do take science at face value and oftentimes espouse social freedoms. They've got to reconcile their personal beliefs with their religious beliefs and then reconcile that with scientific evidence that doesn't mesh with their religious belief. It's an ocean of CD. However, I'd be open to discussion on this matter. There might be some faucet of the devout (or the moderate) that I'm not seeing.


EDIT: I feel as if I misunderstood what you are saying. I think I understand now, but I (sadly) don't know the word for what you're thinking of.

[Tempus]

I think it's a mistake to assume that because someone has the same information you do that they'll necessarily reach the same conclusions as you. Perhaps the parts or their knowledge that constitute the "right" answer in your mind aren't connected in theirs. Or perhaps they are, but in a different arrangement. I also think it's a mistake to assume an individual who is self reporting their own reasoning has direct access to what their own motivations actually are. I think anyone who engages in meaningful self reflection discovers a lot of things about themselves that wasn't resting on the surface.

I don't think anyone is being dishonest until I have a reason to. Further, it's not wise to extrapolate from a few encounters with people of group X that the whole group they belong to is dishonest. Even if every Muslim I'd met were demonstrably dishonest, that still wouldn't justify labelling the entire group as such given its immense size and the diverse range of people it encompasses. I evaluate on a case by case basis, whether they be Muslims, atheists, or whatever.

[Minimalist]

I don't think they are dishonest...any more than most xtians are dishonest. I think they honestly choose to believe a pile of superstitious shit because they have had it shoved up their asses and down their throats since birth.

Point #2 - I don't give a flying fuck what such people of limited intellect think of atheists. They have enough problems of their own without worrying about us.


( P.S. Muslims who do wonder about islam have my unending respect. They live in a barbaric culture which would gleefully kill them for doubting their holy horseshit. The courage it takes to do that cannot be underestimated.)

[Taqiyya Mockingbird]

Why should we care whether twats who we know are demonstrably dishonest with temselves have deluded themselves into thinking that it is we who are dishonest with ourselves? Should we even be surprised at this aspect of their self-delusion? How could their delusion survive if they thought otherwise?

[Rayaan]

I don't think that atheists nor theists are necessarily dishonest about their beliefs. There are some theists who have studied their religion a lot and they believe that their religion is a rational system in their own minds, at least. As for atheists, I haven't really gotten a feeling that they were being dishonest in their lack of belief in God (or gods) according to the ones who I have met in this forum so far.

However, it's definitely possible that some of us are self-deluded (including myself), while others are dishonest, but I can't always tell if someone is being dishonest for sure.

[Anomalocaris]

I think the notion of honesty here goes beyond merely whether one believes this in one's own mind, and extends to the more nebulous area of "would one have believed this in one's own mind if one simply seeks the truth using reasonable methods as might be gleamed from one's environment, and are impartial to what the truth thus discovered is".

[Mystic]

Rayaan, if you believe Atheists are being honest to themselves, why do you think Quran promises hell for those whom don't believe in God or the hereafter? I mean how do you rationalize it?

And how does that go well with "The right guidance has been made clear from error"?

[Faith No More]

Anyone claiming theists or atheists are being dishonest with themselves is simply making a gross generalization about an entire group. I am of the firm belief that generlizations such as that should be avoided at all costs.