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Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
#1
Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
Hey there,

Non religious people tend to overly use words without thinking about them, just like many religious people do, only in a much more dishonest manner.

Let's take the motto "I believe in science" for example, which is, for most skeptics, a euphemism for "I don't believe in anything any religion claims". The latter declaration already contains a mistake since nobody exhausted all the religious claims and ensured that they're fake. Let's remember that atheists are perfectly fine with ruling out entire religions with guesswork and false stereotypes.

Fancy words like science, reason, etc. refer to a very simple idea : we struggle very hard to figure out how things work around us. We invented mathematics and fancy abstract concepts for the sole purpose of getting our thoughts straight. When our mathematics became good enough we were finally able to have a better intuition of the universe. What should be kept in mind here is that we didn't create anything, we adapted to an a priori existence, all our attempts in science are a posteriori explanations that we try to fit to what we see around us. It's easy to imagine a very clever alien figuring out our entire "glories" of science in a couple of hours, then coming with a working theory of everything in the next, but this very alien is clever enough not to mess with fundamentally different questions like a meaning of his existence , or disregard revelation without looking at it hard enough.

So the purpose of science is attempts to figure out a posteriori how stuff works. Religion is about wondering why there is an a priori to discover in the first place. These are two entirely distinct compartments. Huge advancements in one don't negate the importance of the other.

That's why people repeating the aforementioned motto are fundamentally dishonest, they equivocate and mix these two very different aspects of reality.

It's not hard to make a case that we will never access any kind of ultimate reality, we already know that we cannot ever predict a physical quanity of a particle with certainty [Uncertainty principle]. Yeah : predicting certainly anything about one particle anywhere in the universe is already inaccessible to us forever.

And let's not forget that it took us 1700+ years to prove pi is irrational. And some still say : I'm open minded about discovering God in the future Hilarious .

The only honest position is actually to take one of the two extremes. Saying that you're open to science discovering god is a grave misunderstanding of both science and religion.
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#2
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
"The only honest position is actually to take one of the two extremes"

way to go fundy!
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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#3
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
Quote:Fancy words like science, reason

Mighty fancy, those words. My heartfelt contrafibularities on using them.

Boru
'A man is accepted into a church for what he believes.  He is turned out for what he knows.' - Mark Twain
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#4
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
He's back and just as nutty
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”
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#5
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
I will believe religious claims when I see testable evidence to support those claims
The meek shall inherit the Earth, the rest of us will fly to the stars.

Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud ..... after a while you realise that the pig likes it!

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#6
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Hey there,

Non religious people tend to overly use words without thinking about them, just like many religious people do, only in a much more dishonest manner.

This seems a bit over-general to me. It's true that human beings tend to use words that we haven't thought about much. I think we pretty much have to do this. But to say that non-religious people as a group are more dishonest about it surely isn't fair. There are honest ones and dishonest ones. 

Quote:Let's take the motto "I believe in science" for example

I can see how "believe in science" could be problematic. Science is a method. Still, if people say that they consider it to be the best method for studying the world, that's a reasonable position. 

Quote:So the purpose of science is attempts to figure out a posteriori how stuff works. Religion is about wondering why there is an a priori to discover in the first place. These are two entirely distinct compartments. Huge advancements in one don't negate the importance of the other.

Yes, this makes sense. Science and religion do different things, and we get in trouble when we pretend they are the same. 

Some vehement atheists seem to think that religion is always just failed science, and that's not true. Some vehement religious people think that religion should overrule the discoveries of science, and that's also bad.

Quote:Saying that you're open to science discovering god is a grave misunderstanding of both science and religion.

I agree with this. Questions about God are metaphysics, and therefore not science by definition. But that doesn't lead me to agree with the sentence you wrote prior:

Quote:The only honest position is actually to take one of the two extremes. 

It is perfectly honest for many people to say that they don't know, that they're still working on it. Honesty doesn't require us to pick one team and oppose the other one.
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#7
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
A person says he thinks there is a 50% chance of a god. There is nothing dishonest about that. 

The person is not a theist or an atheist, he's agnostic. The assertion that one must choose between two options is a black and white fallacy
The further people stray from the truth, 
the more they will hate those who speak it
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#8
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
I don't "believe" in science.

I ACCEPT peer-reviewed, testable science.

I don't BELIEVE in deities.

And I have yet to see any peer-reviewed, testable claims regarding deities, let alone any claims that I'll accept.
Sanity adjacent.


Angel





IMGUR 
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#9
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Hey there,

Non religious people tend to overly use words without thinking about them, just like many religious people do, only in a much more dishonest manner.
Not a good sign, the generalisation is false, as is the wanton characterisation, and the lie. Fail.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Let's take the motto "I believe in science" for example,
Why? Nobody "believes in science". Science is a method not a faith. Science is the sole reason you can post this crap right here, right now. Want to reject the scientific method? Then you had better get of the internet, because that is a product of the science you apparently hate.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: which is, for most skeptics, a euphemism for "I don't believe in anything any religion claims".
That has fuck all to do with skeptics. It is rather simple. Wanna make a claim? Go right ahead and provide your evidence. And you have failed in that task. Got evidence for whichever deity of your choice? Sure. Every skeptic and atheist would accept such evidence for whichever fucked up deity.

The problem is that none has been provided for any of the thousands of claimed deities.

Want me to believe in your particular flavour of deity? No problem. Provide evidence that it is real. And you cannot. This perpetual lack of evidence is not my problem. It is yours.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: The latter declaration already contains a mistake since nobody exhausted all the religious claims and ensured that they're fake.
Not an atheists problem. It is the theist issue to demonstrate their claim of whichever claim they happen to make. Have you expended that effort disproving the god of Islam, Hindhuism, Sikhism Spiritualism, and so on through the countless thousands of claimed deities? Of course you haven't. Therefore we are forced to conclude that your deity is merely the same as Quetzalcaotl. Just another caliamed deity in a cornucopia of thousands of claimed deities, not one of which has any evidence.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Let's remember that atheists are perfectly fine with ruling out entire religions with guesswork and false stereotypes.
False. For obvious reasons. Should we rule out Heavens Gate? Yes or no. Why?

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Fancy words like science, reason, etc. refer to a very simple idea : we struggle very hard to figure out how things work around us.
And why should we not? Should we throw up our hands in a fit of abject laziness and just state out front that goddit and give up? Which one? And how did you decide which one?

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: We invented mathematics
Nope. That's false.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: and fancy abstract concepts for the sole purpose of getting our thoughts straight.
False.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: When our mathematics became good enough we were finally able to have a better intuition of the universe.
False.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: What should be kept in mind here is that we didn't create anything, we adapted to an a priori existence,
So fucked that you should stop smoking whatever it is.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: all our attempts in science are a posteriori explanations that we try to fit to what we see around us.
Good grief. You really have no clue how science works.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's easy to imagine a very clever alien figuring out our entire "glories" of science in a couple of hours, then coming with a working theory of everything in the next, but this very alien is clever enough not to mess with fundamentally different questions like a meaning of his existence , or disregard revelation without looking at it hard enough.
Sorry, but your random fantasy is not science.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: So the purpose of science is attempts to figure out a posteriori how stuff works.
False.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Religion is about wondering why there is an a priori to discover in the first place.
False.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: These are two entirely distinct compartments.
Correct. One is rational, justified, testable and repeatable. The other one is not.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Huge advancements in one don't negate the importance of the other.
Could you pray your posts on here? Of course not.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: That's why people repeating the aforementioned motto are fundamentally dishonest, they equivocate and mix these two very different aspects of reality.
So far, only one of those can be demonstrated to be real. Sky fairies? Nope. Think otherwise? Go right ahead and demonstrate your particular flavour of sky fairy. You won't because you can't.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: It's not hard to make a case that we will never access any kind of ultimate reality, we already know that we cannot ever predict a physical quanity of a particle with certainty [Uncertainty principle]. Yeah : predicting certainly anything about one particle anywhere in the universe is already inaccessible to us forever.
The honest answer of "I don't know" is not remotely equivalent to the claim that <insert deity of choice> did it all. It is an explanation for fuck all.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: And let's not forget that it took us 1700+ years to prove pi is irrational.
But it took your magic book to determine Pi is three.
(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: And some still say : I'm open minded about discovering God in the future Hilarious .
Except that this is true. Provide evidence for whichever magic sky fairy is your particular crank and if it stands up, any atheist would believe it. But you have failed to even make the attempt.

(February 14, 2020 at 5:13 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: The only honest position is actually to take one of the two extremes. Saying that you're open to science discovering god is a grave misunderstanding of both science and religion.
Possibly the dumbest sentence ever.
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#10
RE: Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position
"I don't know" is the only honest answer.  The rest is a guess.
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