Both groups feel the other side is dishonest?

[Anomalocaris]

I am of the firm belief that generlizations such as that should be avoided at all costs.

Indeed, all generalizations are wrong.

[Mystic]

Anyone claiming theists or atheists are being dishonest with themselves is simply making a gross generalization about an entire group. I am of the firm belief that generlizations such as that should be avoided at all costs.

I agree.

When I read Tafsirs of why God blinds a person's heart, it is said, because the truth is presented to him, and he "covers" it dishonestly. Naturally the seeing and hearing in Quran are stated to believers alone. Disbelievers are made blind, because of their "obstinacy" towards the truth. They should submit but they refuse, even though it's clear.

Recalling back as a Muslim, I think I had "double think". I believed disbelievers were good people, kind, etc, and at the same time, believed they were unjust and deserved hell.

I think Rayaan is in this double think. He believes in two contradictory notions. One from Quran "Evil is the likeness of those whom reject our revelations/Signs", and another "I think disbelievers can be good people and often are".

I think most Muslims are in this double think.

I wouldn't say it's intellectually dishonesty, it's just holding on to contradictions without realizing it.

[Rev. Rye]

Nobody's mentioned this point, but here goes: It is a doctrine in Islam that all people innately believe in Islam, but only fall away from the faith later in life. I have also heard the same with other religions, including Christianity. This may explain why believers may consider non-believers to be dishonest. I, on the other hand, think that it's best to consdier them honest until evidence comes to light showing otherwise.

[Mystic]

Nobody's mentioned this point, but here goes: It is a doctrine in Islam that all people innately believe in Islam, but only fall away from the faith later in life. I have also heard the same with other religions, including Christianity. This may explain why believers may consider non-believers to be dishonest. I, on the other hand, think that it's best to consdier them honest until evidence comes to light showing otherwise.

This is not exactly the view, rather, it's that, humanity is created upon the nature to submit to God and to the truth when presented it.

The religion of God is submission to him. Therefore those without Messengers whom submit themselves to God, are upon "Islam". Following the moral upright nature and believing in God would be the two requisites here.

If a Messenger comes, part of submitting to God, is then obeying the Messenger to Obey God.

As humanity is naturally inclined to submit to God and the truth when presented, it is said, the religion all humans are made in is in Submission.

But this doesn't mean humanity naturally automatically believes in all the features of Islam or anything like that.

I think actually, the emphasis on the "Fitra" (nature), is a factor why many people convert to Islam, because they do feel this accurately describes their nature.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

As a general principle? I have no reason to doubt their honesty.

why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

I have no idea and could not care less what they think. I only care about what they do. (sometimes)

In our society,we (ideally) are judged by our behaviour, not by our thoughts,beliefs or feelings. In my daily life I am more concerned with the 'what' than the 'why' of things.

[Brian37]

Belief is not a Muslim issue, it is a species issue over our ENTIRE evolution. Singling out Muslims is stupid. It isn't that we should not attack their claims, we should. But this misses the bigger picture as to why humans have always had placebo gap deities they have concocted throughout our species history.

The reason humans cling to their beliefs collectively is a result of evolution. When a group finds a pattern that seems to work, even if they center that belief around a falsehood, that belief can have the benefit of safety in numbers. Muslims believe in Allah and are successful for the same reason the Ancient Egyptians were successful for 3,000 years falsely centered around the belief that the sun was a god.

Dawkins describes this evolutionary flaw as "the moth mistaking the light bulb for moonlight" in "The God Delusion".

And I cant stress enough to everyone read Victor Stenger's book "The New Atheism" that shows the universal morality all humans have that is in reality not label based, but evolutionary based. Out of all the books I have read by scientists or atheists that needs to be more famous than it is, this one is a must read for anyone who values science.

[genkaus]

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

No, just deluded.

My 2nd question, why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs? Do you feel it maybe be self-projection?

No, I think that would be the result of their delusion.

I might be assuming a few things here, but I don't think the question here is about the actual existence of god, but regarding the idea that god has given inherent knowledge of himself to all human beings (a common concept in many religions; not sure if that's true for Islam). Irrespective of whether god exists of not, that statement has no rational basis.

[Brian37]

My first question, is do you feel Muslims are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

As a general principle? I have no reason to doubt their honesty.

why do you think some of them think Atheists are dishonest to themselves about their beliefs?

I have no idea and could not care less what they think. I only care about what they do. (sometimes)

In our society,we (ideally) are judged by our behaviour, not by our thoughts,beliefs or feelings. In my daily life I am more concerned with the 'what' than the 'why' of things.

No in our society, AND in evolution we are lured by the quick fix, and we generally flock to that which is close to us and we are familiar with. Don't mistake your heightened awareness of what should be in judging people on behavior with the reality that labels throughout our species history have always become the short cut way to judge.

But I disagree that the "what" is the most important. Anyone can say what they believe. "Why" is the evidence as to "what" and where our modern inventions, technology, and medicine have been the only thing to determine universally "what" reality is.

"What" can be anything including imagination, and even scientist have to have it. "Why" must always be important, it is the only thing that backs up "what". Without the "why" we as humans merely wallow in our own tribal masturbation.