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RE: Pascal's wager
July 29, 2012 at 1:27 pm
(July 29, 2012 at 12:47 am)CliveStaples Wrote: (July 24, 2012 at 12:06 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I don't understand your analogy.
Suppose that you're quite an evil person at your core. If God wants you to be honest to yourself, then you must act authentically to who you are at your core.
But I don't think that's right. If you're quite an evil person at your core, wouldn't a good person--divine or otherwise--want you do choose to be different? To care more for others, etc.?
No, that has nothing to do with being honest with oneself. If you are evil, then the honest and good thing to do, would be to recognize you are and then regret it and reform yourself. To listen to your concsious. The dishonest thing to do if you are evil, is to pretend your good and act as if you are.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 29, 2012 at 1:30 pm
Quote:There are a lot of assumptions about the nature of the uber deity here.
Indeed there are. The first of those assumptions is that all theists think their god agrees with them on everything.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 29, 2012 at 7:00 pm
what is the link between belief in god and god's approbation? There is nothing logically necessary about believing in god inciting his love.
Religion is an attempt to answer the philosophical questions of the unphilosophical man.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 29, 2012 at 8:14 pm
(July 29, 2012 at 1:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (July 29, 2012 at 12:47 am)CliveStaples Wrote: Suppose that you're quite an evil person at your core. If God wants you to be honest to yourself, then you must act authentically to who you are at your core.
But I don't think that's right. If you're quite an evil person at your core, wouldn't a good person--divine or otherwise--want you do choose to be different? To care more for others, etc.?
No, that has nothing to do with being honest with oneself. If you are evil, then the honest and good thing to do, would be to recognize you are and then regret it and reform yourself. To listen to your concsious. The dishonest thing to do if you are evil, is to pretend your good and act as if you are.
What if you are evil, but honestly think that you are good? What if someone with an epistemic advantage tells you that your belief is wrong?
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 29, 2012 at 10:14 pm
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2012 at 10:16 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(July 29, 2012 at 1:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: No, that has nothing to do with being honest with oneself. If you are evil, then the honest and good thing to do, would be to recognize you are and then regret it and reform yourself. To listen to your concsious. The dishonest thing to do if you are evil, is to pretend your good and act as if you are. bolding is mine
That sounds like "honest" evil to me Mystic..I don't know, you mighty have to work on this one a bit... I'm left wondering btw, when you open with "if you are evil" and then immediately follow that up with what an honest and good thing to do would be, doesn't that strike you as more than a little bit odd? Conscience? I think perhaps you're imagining that an "evil" persons conscience says the same things to them that your conscience says to you. Nevertheless, you're going to be at a loss in determining who's imaginary friend is yanking who's chain.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 31, 2012 at 6:22 pm
I like to call it Pascal's copout.
Is "belief" under Pascal's wager really "belief" at all? How can you go from not believing in something due to lack of evidence, and then go to a state of "believing" while still knowingly lacking evidence? Seems to me more like pretending than believing which under most theist's line of "thinking" won't cut it to get you out of hell.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 31, 2012 at 6:42 pm
(July 31, 2012 at 6:22 pm)teaearlgreyhot Wrote: I like to call it Pascal's copout.
Is "belief" under Pascal's wager really "belief" at all? How can you go from not believing in something due to lack of evidence, and then go to a state of "believing" while still knowingly lacking evidence? Seems to me more like pretending than believing which under most theist's line of "thinking" won't cut it to get you out of hell.
I'm not sure what the problem you're articulating is. People can change their minds, and change their beliefs. Are you asking how this occurs? That seems like a question for neuropsychology.
“The truth of our faith becomes a matter of ridicule among the infidels if any Catholic, not gifted with the necessary scientific learning, presents as dogma what scientific scrutiny shows to be false.”
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 31, 2012 at 7:02 pm
(July 29, 2012 at 10:14 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (July 29, 2012 at 1:27 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: No, that has nothing to do with being honest with oneself. If you are evil, then the honest and good thing to do, would be to recognize you are and then regret it and reform yourself. To listen to your concsious. The dishonest thing to do if you are evil, is to pretend your good and act as if you are. bolding is mine
That sounds like "honest" evil to me Mystic..I don't know, you mighty have to work on this one a bit... I'm left wondering btw, when you open with "if you are evil" and then immediately follow that up with what an honest and good thing to do would be, doesn't that strike you as more than a little bit odd? Conscience? I think perhaps you're imagining that an "evil" persons conscience says the same things to them that your conscience says to you. Nevertheless, you're going to be at a loss in determining who's imaginary friend is yanking who's chain.
Two observations here.
One, this made me think of the old Dungeons & Dragons alignment system.
Two, how much psychological research has been conducted to establish that there is an actual mindset of evil-ness? Is it possible for someone to truly understand himself to be an evil being?
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 31, 2012 at 7:14 pm
(July 31, 2012 at 7:02 pm)Epimethean Wrote: Is it possible for someone to truly understand himself to be an evil being?
I would say yes. Many people who commit evil acts know the act is evil but are driven to do it by some malfunction of the brain or maybe even a tumor pressing on a part of the brain. It is kind of like how smokers know smoking is bad for them but do it because of how it makes them feel and the addiction.
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RE: Pascal's wager
July 31, 2012 at 7:22 pm
(This post was last modified: July 31, 2012 at 7:25 pm by Epimethean.)
But what we are discussing is the notion of a thematically or truly evil person, not someone who commits an act and is capable of reflecting on it from a distance. Perhaps such people do exist.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...ining-evil
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