Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
If we read more into Mark, specifically the beginning of Jesus' ministry, we can see that Mark is still referencing parts of the OT that speak of punishment and destruction.
Mark 1:16-20
16 As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake—for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, 'Follow me and I will make you fish for people.' 18 And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19 As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately he called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men, and followed him.
The only place in the OT where it speaks of people 'fishing' for others is in Jeremiah 16:16 but I'll quote it from just before that so we can get some context:
Jeremiah 16:10-18
10 "When you tell these people all this and they ask you, 'Why has the LORD decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the LORD our God?' 11 then say to them, 'It is because your fathers forsook me,' declares the LORD, 'and followed other gods and served and worshiped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law. 12 But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me. 13 So I will throw you out of this land into a land neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.'
14 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' 15 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
16 "But now I will send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks. 17 My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes. 18 I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols."
Clearly this reference makes sense if one has to live through the aftermath of a war, just like the Jews did when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. Note how the character of Jesus is strongly bound through allegory to the tragedies that happened. The start of his 'ministry' parallel what YHWH did to punish the Jews beforehand.
This is actually perfectly in line with our initial understanding of Mark (Uncovering the Markan Allegory) which shows us J.t.B. is analogous to Elijah, which gives us an understanding of the role of Jesus; " I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes." (Malachi 4:5). Terrible the day was indeed, when YHWH destroyed Jerusalem according to Mark.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
(July 25, 2012 at 11:06 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: If we read more into Mark, specifically the beginning of Jesus' ministry, we can see that Mark is still referencing parts of the OT that speak of punishment and destruction.
Mark 1:16-20
16 As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake—for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, 'Follow me and I will make you fish for people.' 18 And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19 As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately he called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men, and followed him.
The only place in the OT where it speaks of people 'fishing' for others is in Jeremiah 16:16 but I'll quote it from just before that so we can get some context:
Jeremiah 16:10-18
10 "When you tell these people all this and they ask you, 'Why has the LORD decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the LORD our God?' 11 then say to them, 'It is because your fathers forsook me,' declares the LORD, 'and followed other gods and served and worshiped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law. 12 But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me. 13 So I will throw you out of this land into a land neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.'
14 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' 15 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
16 "But now I will send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks. 17 My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes. 18 I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols."
Clearly this reference makes sense if one has to live through the aftermath of a war, just like the Jews did when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. Note how the character of Jesus is strongly bound through allegory to the tragedies that happened. The start of his 'ministry' parallel what YHWH did to punish the Jews beforehand.
This is actually perfectly in line with our initial understanding of Mark (Uncovering the Markan Allegory) which shows us J.t.B. is analogous to Elijah, which gives us an understanding of the role of Jesus; " I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes." (Malachi 4:5). Terrible the day was indeed, when YHWH destroyed Jerusalem according to Mark.
LOL, FTR, you're attempting to have a discussion about the narratives and themes that may have contributed to the creation of a legend with someone who insists that the whole thing is a documentary.......
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Well it redefines what 'Christianity' is, doesn't it! If this interpretation is correct then Christianity is a fanatics club that puts the story of the destruction of the Jews on a pedestal. Of course Christians today don't know that and go about interpreting everything as literal history... Hence why I've never seen someone e.g. healed.
Interpretation is key.
Rhythm Wrote:LOL, FTR, you're attempting to have a discussion about the narratives and themes that may have contributed to the creation of a legend with someone who insists that the whole thing is a documentary
I figured I should stop just showing the 'inaccuracies' of the Jesus story and start putting forth my own theory of what the Gospels are. I think this line of argumentation is so much more powerful than simply showing where the Jesus story fails. After all, the Gospels are there in ink which means there was a motive behind them. I believe my theory explains that motive which is ultimately harder to disprove than showing the incoherence in a literal and historical understanding of the Gospels.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
Well, prophetic cycles are important, especially so in this mythology. So, while you may be looking to events to provide an impetus for the ink, you have to be willing to entertain the possibility that even less similar events were stretched to fit the narrative (and that's avoiding that they may be manufactured whole-clothe). No one needs any event in actuality to provide a reason for storytelling.
In the end it's a bit like trying to decide what an author "really meant" post- humously with no help from the author. Tough nut to crack. Easy to criticize.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
(July 26, 2012 at 1:02 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, prophetic cycles are important, especially so in this mythology. So, while you may be looking to events to provide an impetus for the ink, you have to be willing to entertain the possibility that even less similar events were stretched to fit the narrative (and that's avoiding that they may be manufactured whole-clothe). No one needs any event in actuality to provide a reason for storytelling.
In the end it's a bit like trying to decide what an author "really meant" post- humously with no help from the author. Tough nut to crack. Easy to criticize.
Yeah, fair enough. I think it's somewhat possible though. I mean we know quite well the context of the time I'd say. Knowing that there were Hellenistic Jews like Philo who would see deeper meanings in the OT also greatly boosts the possibility of Mark being a reworking of the OT in light of recent events affecting the Jewish communities.
The more I look into it, the more parallels there are between non-prophetic chunks of OT and Gospel. It's like the characters in the Gospel had to carry the OT and use it as a rough script for this 'genuine history' to turn out like that. Unlikely!
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
July 26, 2012 at 1:28 pm (This post was last modified: July 26, 2012 at 1:36 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Well, also consider that all parts of the OT are "potentially prophetic" in that they can always be made to be so if the author of any subsequent narrative were inclined (and there's a very juicy reason to make them so). Prophecy after the fact and in absentia of fact are two fairly common themes in mythology. It does seem very important to us to "know whats coming", and we've held for a very long time that history repeats itself. I'm unqualified to say why this is for certain but one can see how a practical concern like this can be elevated to the status of the spiritual. Once there, it's a short hop and a skip to all of our myths -where we do find it in abundance-. Consider also that there may be a great deal of filler in the narratives........what do you do when you have a introduction on page 1 and the message on page ten, you have 8 pages of material you need to come up with. The same is true of oral traditions, where patterns of speech or little "mini-stories" ,even down to repetitive phrases and command-call words, are often leveraged as a memory aide.
Consider also, that narratives aren't always written for the purposes expressly stated within them (or assigned to them). Necronimicon being an amusing and more modern example of this. Lent, borrowed, tweaked, altered, forgotten and remembered, satirized, I mean, it's wide open.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
July 26, 2012 at 5:02 pm (This post was last modified: July 26, 2012 at 5:04 pm by Angrboda.)
(July 26, 2012 at 1:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Consider also that there may be a great deal of filler in the narratives........what do you do when you have a introduction on page 1 and the message on page ten, you have 8 pages of material you need to come up with. The same is true of oral traditions, where patterns of speech or little "mini-stories" ,even down to repetitive phrases and command-call words, are often leveraged as a memory aide.
And this is especially important with these texts given that the oral tradition was likely shaped by synogogues and nascent "churches" using the "bones" of the stories to shape traditional liturgical practice. Perhaps by picking and choosing appropriately, perhaps by structuring the narrative to serve liturgical needs, such as commemorating OT historical events, Jewish/Christian events of significance such as feast days and holidays, and the like. Or, it could have been driven by a completely independent process. About all you have is speculation.
However, that being said, within the limits of hermeneutics (according to some like Gadamer, damningly confining), a historical or literary hypothesis is measured similarly to that of a scientific hypothesis. You cast around for hypotheses and explanations, given methodological standards and current knowledge, you estimate how probable each hypothesis appears to be, and compare probabilities to see if there is any clear differentiation. Unfortunately, that is not without its shoals as believers and disbelievers are likely to have irreconcilable differences regarding epistemological assumptions. (E.g. Are miracles an exceedingly rare event? Those following metaphysical realism, as opposed to methodological realism, would say yes. But what are they basing their assumption of the base rate of miracles upon beside an assumption? Perhaps the continuing law-like behavior of the universe is one non-stop continuous series of miracles.)
(July 26, 2012 at 1:28 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Well, also consider that all parts of the OT are "potentially prophetic" in that they can always be made to be so if the author of any subsequent narrative were inclined (and there's a very juicy reason to make them so). Prophecy after the fact and in absentia of fact are two fairly common themes in mythology. It does seem very important to us to "know whats coming", and we've held for a very long time that history repeats itself. I'm unqualified to say why this is for certain but one can see how a practical concern like this can be elevated to the status of the spiritual. Once there, it's a short hop and a skip to all of our myths -where we do find it in abundance-. Consider also that there may be a great deal of filler in the narratives........what do you do when you have a introduction on page 1 and the message on page ten, you have 8 pages of material you need to come up with. The same is true of oral traditions, where patterns of speech or little "mini-stories" ,even down to repetitive phrases and command-call words, are often leveraged as a memory aide.
Consider also, that narratives aren't always written for the purposes expressly stated within them (or assigned to them). Necronimicon being an amusing and more modern example of this. Lent, borrowed, tweaked, altered, forgotten and remembered, satirized, I mean, it's wide open.
I don't think the Gospel of Mark was something that evolved over time. That may be true of say John because when compared to the Synoptics it's quite clear that the story and theology became quite advanced.
Mark has too many explicit and implicit parallels to the OT that just makes me think it wasn't some oral tradition being taught.
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" ~ Aristotle
July 27, 2012 at 12:52 am (This post was last modified: July 27, 2012 at 12:53 am by Undeceived.)
(July 25, 2012 at 11:06 pm)FallentoReason Wrote: If we read more into Mark, specifically the beginning of Jesus' ministry, we can see that Mark is still referencing parts of the OT that speak of punishment and destruction.
Mark 1:16-20
16 As Jesus passed along the Sea of Galilee, he saw Simon and his brother Andrew casting a net into the lake—for they were fishermen. 17 And Jesus said to them, 'Follow me and I will make you fish for people.' 18 And immediately they left their nets and followed him. 19 As he went a little farther, he saw James son of Zebedee and his brother John, who were in their boat mending the nets. 20 Immediately he called them; and they left their father Zebedee in the boat with the hired men, and followed him.
The only place in the OT where it speaks of people 'fishing' for others is in Jeremiah 16:16 but I'll quote it from just before that so we can get some context:
Jeremiah 16:10-18
10 "When you tell these people all this and they ask you, 'Why has the LORD decreed such a great disaster against us? What wrong have we done? What sin have we committed against the LORD our God?' 11 then say to them, 'It is because your fathers forsook me,' declares the LORD, 'and followed other gods and served and worshiped them. They forsook me and did not keep my law. 12 But you have behaved more wickedly than your fathers. See how each of you is following the stubbornness of his evil heart instead of obeying me. 13 So I will throw you out of this land into a land neither you nor your fathers have known, and there you will serve other gods day and night, for I will show you no favor.'
14 "However, the days are coming," declares the LORD, "when men will no longer say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of Egypt,' 15 but they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought the Israelites up out of the land of the north and out of all the countries where he had banished them.' For I will restore them to the land I gave their forefathers.
16 "But now I will send for many fishermen," declares the LORD, "and they will catch them. After that I will send for many hunters, and they will hunt them down on every mountain and hill and from the crevices of the rocks. 17 My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from me, nor is their sin concealed from my eyes. 18 I will repay them double for their wickedness and their sin, because they have defiled my land with the lifeless forms of their vile images and have filled my inheritance with their detestable idols."
Clearly this reference makes sense if one has to live through the aftermath of a war, just like the Jews did when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed. Note how the character of Jesus is strongly bound through allegory to the tragedies that happened. The start of his 'ministry' parallel what YHWH did to punish the Jews beforehand.
This is actually perfectly in line with our initial understanding of Mark (Uncovering the Markan Allegory) which shows us J.t.B. is analogous to Elijah, which gives us an understanding of the role of Jesus; " I will send you the prophet Elijah before the great and terrible day of the Lord comes." (Malachi 4:5). Terrible the day was indeed, when YHWH destroyed Jerusalem according to Mark.
This is like saying if J.F. Kennedy's biography contains themes of one warring power against other powers it must be fiction based on World War II.
![[Image: extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg]](https://i.postimg.cc/zf86M5L7/extraordinarywoo-sig.jpg)
