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Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
#1
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Christians are always trying to absolve God of moral culpability in the fall by putting forward their free will argument and placing all the blame on mankind.
That usually sounds like ----God gave us free will and it was our free willed choices that caused our fall. Hence God is not blameworthy. Such statements simply avoid God's culpability as the author and creator of human nature.

Free will is only the ability to choose. It is not an explanation why anyone would want to choose "A" or "B" (bad or good action). An explanation for why Eve would even have the nature of "being vulnerable to being easily swayed by a serpent" and "desiring to eat a forbidden fruit" must lie in the nature God gave Eve in the first place. Hence God is culpable for deliberately making humans with a nature-inclined-to-fall, and "free will" means nothing as a response to this problem.

If all do evil/sin by nature then, the evil/sin nature is dominant. If not, we would have at least some who would not do evil/sin. Can we then help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?

Having said the above for the God that I do not believe in, I am a Gnostic Christian naturalist, let me tell you that evil and sin is all human generated and in this sense, I agree with Christians, but for completely different reasons. Evil is mankind’s responsibility and not some imaginary God’s. Free will is something that can only be taken. Free will cannot be given not even by a God unless it has been forcibly withheld.

Much has been written to explain evil and sin but I see as a natural part of evolution.

Consider.
First, let us eliminate what some see as evil. Natural disasters. These are unthinking occurrences and are neither good nor evil. There is no intent to do evil even as victims are created. Without intent to do evil, no act should be called evil.
In secular courts, this is called mens rea. Latin for an evil mind or intent and without it, the court will not find someone guilty even if they know that they are the perpetrator of the act.

Evil then is only human to human when they know they are doing evil and intend harm.
As evolving creatures, all we ever do, and ever can do, is compete or cooperate.
Cooperation we would see as good as there are no victims created. Competition would be seen as evil as it creates a victim. We all are either cooperating, doing good, or competing, doing evil, at all times.

Without us doing some of both, we would likely go extinct.

This, to me, explains why there is evil in the world quite well.

Be you a believer in nature, evolution or God, you should see that what Christians see as something to blame, evil, we should see that what we have, competition, deserves a huge thanks for being available to us. Wherever it came from, God or nature, without evolution we would go extinct. We must do good and evil.

There is no conflict between nature and God on this issue. This is how things are and should be. We all must do what some will think is evil as we compete and create losers to this competition.

These links speak to theistic evolution.

http://www.americamagazine.org/content/a...le_id=1205

http://www.youtube.com/user/ProfMTH#g/c/...F680C1DBEB

If theistic evolution is true, then the myth of Eden should be read as a myth and there is not really any original sin.

If the above is not convincing enough for you then show me where in this baby evil lives or is a part of it’s nature and instincts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBW5vdhr_PA

Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
And if you cannot, why would God punish you?

Regards
DL
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#2
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
If you wish to look at Evil as a simple expression of Free will/Choice. Then also remove the reward punishment of heaven and hell. Because at that point Heaven ceases to be a reward, and Hell ceases to be a punishment. Your eternal destination also becomes a matter of choice. In that those who 'choose' to be with God for eternity Choose Heaven, and the only path God has provided to get there. Subsequently Hell also becomes a choice, and those who go there choose to be eternally seperated from God, and the rest of creation.

Know this, God will not drag anyone of you who choose eternal seperation, kicking and screaming into eternal life. if you have spent the sum total of this life putting distance between yourself and Him with your philosphies, science and/or 'faiths.' So, If you choose eternal seperation from God know with full comfort and assureance that He will not only honor your life's decesion, He will hold you to it.. Just like if you were to Choose eternal life.

So to recap: Heaven can not be a reward, because no one there deserves to be there. It's like eternal seperation from God.. It is only by your own chosing that you will reside there.
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#3
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Quote:Can you help but do evil?

I have never committed an evil act,nor will I. This may have something to do with the fact that I get to define the word 'evil'. I recognise no absolute moral imperatives and no moral authority apart from my conscience.

A self-serving position? Of course,so what? Such a position is admittedly selfish,but it is in no way evil in itself. (according to my definitions, which are subject to change without notice) Angel Cloud
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#4
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
(July 30, 2012 at 10:14 pm)Drich Wrote: If you wish to look at Evil as a simple expression of Free will/Choice. Then also remove the reward punishment of heaven and hell. Because at that point Heaven ceases to be a reward, and Hell ceases to be a punishment. Your eternal destination also becomes a matter of choice. In that those who 'choose' to be with God for eternity Choose Heaven, and the only path God has provided to get there. Subsequently Hell also becomes a choice, and those who go there choose to be eternally seperated from God, and the rest of creation.

Know this, God will not drag anyone of you who choose eternal seperation, kicking and screaming into eternal life. if you have spent the sum total of this life putting distance between yourself and Him with your philosphies, science and/or 'faiths.' So, If you choose eternal seperation from God know with full comfort and assureance that He will not only honor your life's decesion, He will hold you to it.. Just like if you were to Choose eternal life.

So to recap: Heaven can not be a reward, because no one there deserves to be there. It's like eternal seperation from God.. It is only by your own chosing that you will reside there.

You could have spoken to the issue of the O P.
Preaching in a debate forum shows your poor manners.

Regards
DL

(July 30, 2012 at 11:50 pm)padraic Wrote:
Quote:Can you help but do evil?

I have never committed an evil act,nor will I. This may have something to do with the fact that I get to define the word 'evil'. I recognise no absolute moral imperatives and no moral authority apart from my conscience.

A self-serving position? Of course,so what? Such a position is admittedly selfish,but it is in no way evil in itself. (according to my definitions, which are subject to change without notice) Angel Cloud

Handy.

Regards
DL
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#5
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
(July 31, 2012 at 3:07 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: You could have spoken to the issue of the O P.
Preaching in a debate forum shows your poor manners.

Regards
DL
How did I fail to address the op?
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#6
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Meh, howsabout this Drich, I don't feel like going to hell, particularly if my wife (for example) goes to heaven. So, can I choose to be in heaven and just have god leave me the fuck alone while I'm there enjoying eternity with my wife?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#7
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
Quote:Handy.

Regards
DL

Yes and no;that depends on one's conscience. Mine can be downright annoying.

You seem to imply my position is simply a matter of convenience. Perhaps you would like to supply a short list of absolute,universal moral imperatives, and the source of moral authority for such laws. Pleas keep in mind that I am an atheist.

Cheers

GPD
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#8
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
I sometimes get a kick from doing evil because of my past experiences that have slowly moulded me into the sadistic individual I am today.
For example;
Drich? There is no God, there is no heaven, when you die you'll be gone and you should probably just come out of the closet right now. Don't worry, we'll help you. We'll just get you drunk, dress you in crotchless leather chaps and a police cap, push you into a homosexual orgi and for the next 60 minutes you'd be the lucky dip of some three-hundred erect and eager penises that will plunge into the sore depths of your anus more times than a Vatican rent boy would care to mention. After the times up we'll fish you out, retrieve the security footage, sell it to redtube and get you in a hospital to have stitches sewn in a very tender place while you murmur "...best night ever..."

Now, that was vicious and pointless. Did I enjoy it though? Very much so. I especially love the fact I got the mental image of his body being ravaged repeatedly by an act he considers to be an abomination firmly in his head. He'll probably feel religious guilt for having that mental image and spend the next thirty minutes attempting to get it out of that noggin of his. Maybe it'll even interfere with his dreams.

Of course, this isn't really on par with real evil. If anything its simply unpleasant but I nevertheless enjoy it.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die." 
- Abdul Alhazred.
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#9
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
(July 31, 2012 at 8:47 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I sometimes get a kick from doing evil because of my past experiences that have slowly moulded me into the sadistic individual I am today.
For example;
Drich? There is no God, there is no heaven, when you die you'll be gone and you should probably just come out of the closet right now. Don't worry, we'll help you. We'll just get you drunk, dress you in crotchless leather chaps and a police cap, push you into a homosexual orgi and for the next 60 minutes you'd be the lucky dip of some three-hundred erect and eager penises that will plunge into the sore depths of your anus more times than a Vatican rent boy would care to mention. After the times up we'll fish you out, retrieve the security footage, sell it to redtube and get you in a hospital to have stitches sewn in a very tender place while you murmur "...best night ever..."

Now, that was vicious and pointless. Did I enjoy it though? Very much so. I especially love the fact I got the mental image of his body being ravaged repeatedly by an act he considers to be an abomination firmly in his head. He'll probably feel religious guilt for having that mental image and spend the next thirty minutes attempting to get it out of that noggin of his. Maybe it'll even interfere with his dreams.

Of course, this isn't really on par with real evil. If anything its simply unpleasant but I nevertheless enjoy it.

This explains alot. I hope you find forgiveness for those who wronged you... For your own sake, not theirs...
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#10
RE: Can you help but do evil? I do not see how. Do you?
(July 31, 2012 at 8:07 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Meh, howsabout this Drich, I don't feel like going to hell, particularly if my wife (for example) goes to heaven. So, can I choose to be in heaven and just have god leave me the fuck alone while I'm there enjoying eternity with my wife?
we will see for ultimatly that is between you and God. I would however suggest that you 'choose' before your desision is finalized upon your death.

(July 31, 2012 at 8:47 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: I sometimes get a kick from doing evil because of my past experiences that have slowly moulded me into the sadistic individual I am today.
For example;
Drich? There is no God, there is no heaven, when you die you'll be gone and you should probably just come out of the closet right now. Don't worry, we'll help you. We'll just get you drunk, dress you in crotchless leather chaps and a police cap, push you into a homosexual orgi and for the next 60 minutes you'd be the lucky dip of some three-hundred erect and eager penises that will plunge into the sore depths of your anus more times than a Vatican rent boy would care to mention. After the times up we'll fish you out, retrieve the security footage, sell it to redtube and get you in a hospital to have stitches sewn in a very tender place while you murmur "...best night ever..."

Now, that was vicious and pointless. Did I enjoy it though? Very much so. I especially love the fact I got the mental image of his body being ravaged repeatedly by an act he considers to be an abomination firmly in his head. He'll probably feel religious guilt for having that mental image and spend the next thirty minutes attempting to get it out of that noggin of his. Maybe it'll even interfere with his dreams.

Of course, this isn't really on par with real evil. If anything its simply unpleasant but I nevertheless enjoy it.

Expressing your personal sexual fantsies is not evil, nor is wishing your personal desires on another. It seems in loosing yourself in your sexual fantasy you've also lost the defination of Evil as well. Evil indicates a malice or an intentional deliberate act of sin usally resulting in the serious harm to another. As you seem to have only projected your willing partisipation in multiple sexual acts on to someone else (me) you are only guilty of sexual sin..

Know, that at anytime your sexual fantsies ever turn to Evil (where you start activly preying on unwilling partners, this is not the unpardonable sin. yes you will owe your soceity a debt, but you will have forgiveness from your God if you seek it. This is true with any 'Evil' you are able to regin down on your fellow man.

Wink
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