This Should Piss Off Religious Twits

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

I don't think saying ones opponent is ignorant of a given fact amounts to an ad hominem.

Only if relevant and If you can prove you are right.

There are less aggressive ways of pointing out errors.These are often used in polite society,but less often here.

Arguing "you don't understand/are wrong BECAUSE you are ignorant" is an ad hominem. Arguing "you don't understand/are wrong AND you are ignorant is simply an insult." A person may be pig ignorant and stupid, yet still be right.

In this case you have presented an unproven opinion as fact. It is up to you to name and prove ONE more-or-less common moral rule (say any of the ten commandments) which has its genesis directly in religion.

EG I happen to think you are a closed minded ignoramus who also happens to be a Christian. NOT a closed minded ignoramus BECAUSE you are a Christian. That is an insult, not an ad hominem attack.

[catfish]

It is not impossible to prove. Find that it existed before these religions came about and you will find that they do not stem from them. Show the latter, that these religions show opposition to the listed qualities, and you can also prove the premise. Both are easy enough, but the latter is easiest.

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

Nahum 1:2-8 NLT

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT

Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling.

Nahum 2:2-10 NLT

Do you want more? I can find hate, murder, rape, slavery, etc. no problem. Certainly a text that promotes that cannot be promoting equality, yes?

Jeremiah 8:8
New International Version (NIV)

8 “‘How can you say, “We are wise,
for we have the law of the Lord,”
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

[Zen Badger]

This actually came up at work the other day.

A work collegue made the statement that we get our morality from the bible.

I asked him if he then thought that a rape victim should be forced to marry her attacker.

When he replied "Of course not"

I said "Then you don't get your morality from the bible"

[5thHorseman]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Do yourself a favor. Go and read a bit about Babylonian law 4,000 years ago.

Try the Chinese or the Greeks, who had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian world.

[Lion IRC]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Do yourself a favor. Go and read a bit about Babylonian law 4,000 years ago.

Try the Chinese or the Greeks, who had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian world.

You mean the Chinese whose system of government was wholly underpinned by the concept - tianming - mandate from heaven?

You mean the Greeks as in the Greek Empire which came centuries after the (theocratic) pyramids were built.

Ever heard of a place called Ur? Cuneiform? Some dude named Terah and his son Abraham?

---

It's funny to see the words...the Greeks, who had nothing to do with the Judeo-Christian world.

That is really going in the quote-mine vault. Thanks.

[Deicide73]

This might help settle the debate on morality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaGqVbAzjng

[Minimalist]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Hey...wait a minute. Are you admitting that your bullshit religion is nothing but a derivative of older religions?

[Tobie]

As usual Clyde you manage to miss the point. Try reading Davies' comment slowly...maybe you'll understand it then...

Well, it's "Clive", but since it's a fake internet name anyway, I'm not going to sweat it.

But I've read Davies' comment, and I believe that I understand it. I'll attempt to paraphrase it:


"Some claim that moral values are derived from religion, but I'm irreligious and yet have moral values (don't steal, liberty is good, etc.). These moral values do not come from any religion."

I still don't see a proof that these values cannot be shown to derive from religion.

Theists love to prance around making all sorts of absurd claims about the alleged morality of their murderous god. Davies' leaves the burden of proof solidly on you. See what you can do to rehabilitate your angry desert deity.

...erm, Davies is the one who has made a claim. Specifically, he said that "none of these can be shown to derive from religion, and certainly not from the Bible." The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim; I'd be very interested to see such a proof. Like I said, I really enjoy proofs that something can't be proven.

Christians are the ones making the claim that morality comes from the bible, therefore they are making the positive claim.

As for modern laws, I doubt any christian countries and many Islamic countries have a legal code that perfectly mirrors the rules found in their respective book.

The fact is that there is no evidence for the claim that morality comes from religion, and there is evidence for morality coming from evolution. Just think, you ignore bits of the bible that you think are outdated/wrong which means you have morals that are independent of your own holy book. All evidence suggests that morality is not absolute; for example, slavery was OK less than 200 years ago, but its seen as despicable nowadays. The moral code found in religious books will all someday be out of date, so how likely is it that any of them gave you your morality?

[downbeatplumb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyd6om8IC4M

[Lion IRC]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Hey...wait a minute. Are you admitting that your bullshit religion is nothing but a derivative of older religions?

All religion is derivative from the existence of God.