This Should Piss Off Religious Twits

[Minimalist]

http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/dav368002.shtml

I am a biblical scholar, I adhere to no religion, and I do not think supernatural beings exist, or if they do, that we have any mutual business. According to one often-voiced opinion, I can therefore have no moral values, no ethics. But I can and do, and these are in fact shared with most people, including those who are religious. They include individual human freedom under the rule of law, democracy, equality of race, colour, sex and religion, and freedom of speech. These values reject theft, murder, tyranny, discrimination, intimidation, colonization and slavery. None of these values can be shown to derive from religion, and certainly not from the Bible—on the contrary, many religions and their scriptures are opposed to them. Neither Yahweh nor Allah can be quoted as bestowing any of them on humans.

By Philip R. Davies.

[CliveStaples]

http://www.bibleinterp.com/opeds/dav368002.shtml

I am a biblical scholar, I adhere to no religion, and I do not think supernatural beings exist, or if they do, that we have any mutual business. According to one often-voiced opinion, I can therefore have no moral values, no ethics. But I can and do, and these are in fact shared with most people, including those who are religious. They include individual human freedom under the rule of law, democracy, equality of race, colour, sex and religion, and freedom of speech. These values reject theft, murder, tyranny, discrimination, intimidation, colonization and slavery. None of these values can be shown to derive from religion, and certainly not from the Bible—on the contrary, many religions and their scriptures are opposed to them. Neither Yahweh nor Allah can be quoted as bestowing any of them on humans.

By Philip R. Davies.

I would be very interested to see a proof that none of those values can be shown to derive from religion. (Proofs that something is impossible to prove are really cool!)

[Shell B]

It is not impossible to prove. Find that it existed before these religions came about and you will find that they do not stem from them. Show the latter, that these religions show opposition to the listed qualities, and you can also prove the premise. Both are easy enough, but the latter is easiest.

"They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

Numbers 31:7-18 NLT

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night.

Nahum 1:2-8 NLT

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.

Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT

Listen to them moan like doves; watch them beat their breasts in sorrow. Nineveh is like a leaking water reservoir! The people are slipping away. "Stop, stop!" someone shouts, but the people just keep on running. Loot the silver! Plunder the gold! There seems no end to Nineveh's many treasures – its vast, uncounted wealth. Soon the city is an empty shambles, stripped of its wealth. Hearts melt in horror, and knees shake. The people stand aghast, their faces pale and trembling.

Nahum 2:2-10 NLT

Do you want more? I can find hate, murder, rape, slavery, etc. no problem. Certainly a text that promotes that cannot be promoting equality, yes?

[Lion IRC]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Do yourself a favor. Go and read a bit about Babylonian law 4,000 years ago.

[Minimalist]

I would be very interested to see a proof that none of those values can be shown to derive from religion. (Proofs that something is impossible to prove are really cool!)

As usual Clyde you manage to miss the point. Try reading Davies' comment slowly...maybe you'll understand it then...

None-of-these-values-can-be-shown-to-derive-from-religion,-and- certainly-not-from-the-Bible

Theists love to prance around making all sorts of absurd claims about the alleged morality of their murderous god. Davies' leaves the burden of proof solidly on you. See what you can do to rehabilitate your angry desert deity.

[The Grand Nudger]

Why would they want to? I can't be the only person who suspects that part of the appeal of god in the first place is the cosmic badass routine.

Really, who wants to open up scripture and wallow in page after page of just how much of a pussy their god is?

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Ad hominem;you need to prove your claim. Simply insulting anyone who disagrees with you may be emotionally satisfying,but does not prove your point.

Your claim is certainly a common religious belief, but it is not a proven one.

My position:


I think morality is simply pragmatic (has a survival value) and relative to time and place. Morality has been usurped by religion, but predates religion by millennia.

Recent studies have shown that compassion and empathy [perhaps THE basis of morality] exist in some other primates,and may indeed hard wired in them and humans. Google is your friend. try searching"morality in apes". I did; 2,400,000 hits

Below,just two:

The research indicates that morality has developed through evolution and is not an exclusively human attribute. But if our primate cousins share some of our moral scruples as the findings suggest, it is likely to anger those who believe such traits are God-given and set humans apart, according to reports on the Times Online and Telegraph websites. Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University, who led the study, said:

"I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals."

Read more at http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/eco...72fDq5e.99
The research indicates that morality has developed through evolution and is not an exclusively human attribute. But if our primate cousins share some of our moral scruples as the findings suggest, it is likely to anger those who believe such traits are God-given and set humans apart, according to reports on the Times Online and Telegraph websites. Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University, who led the study, said:

"I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals."

Read more at http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/eco...Dq5e.99The research indicates that morality has developed through evolution and is not an exclusively human attribute. But if our primate cousins share some of our moral scruples as the findings suggest, it is likely to anger those who believe such traits are God-given and set humans apart, according to reports on the Times Online and Telegraph websites. Frans de Waal, professor of psychology at Emory University, who led the study, said:

"I am not arguing that non-human primates are moral beings but there is enough evidence for the following of social rules to agree that some of the stepping stones towards human morality can be found in other animals."

Read more at http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/eco...72fDq5e.99

The evolution of morality refers to the emergence of human moral behavior over the course of human evolution. Morality can be defined as a system of ideas about right and wrong conduct. In everyday life, morality is typically associated with human behavior and not much thought is given to the social conducts of other creatures. The emerging fields of evolutionary biology and in particular sociobiology have argued that, though human social behaviors are complex, the precursors of human morality can be traced to the behaviors of many other social animals. Sociobiological explanations of human behavior are still controversial. The traditional view of social scientists has been that morality is a construct, and is thus culturally relative, although others argue that there is a science of morality.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

[Shell B]

Do yourself a favor. Go and read a bit about Babylonian law 4,000 years ago.

Do you think that is where morals came from? If not, try again.

[Lion IRC]

Anyone who claims that human morals, laws and codes of justice have NOTHING to do with religion is ignorant.

Ad hominem;you need to prove your claim. Simply insulting anyone who disagrees with you may be emotionally satisfying,but does not prove your point.

I dont think saying ones opponent is ignorant of a given fact amounts to an ad hominem.

Was Socrates using an ad hominem on himself when referring to self-awareness of his own ignorance?

[CliveStaples]

As usual Clyde you manage to miss the point. Try reading Davies' comment slowly...maybe you'll understand it then...

Well, it's "Clive", but since it's a fake internet name anyway, I'm not going to sweat it.

But I've read Davies' comment, and I believe that I understand it. I'll attempt to paraphrase it:


"Some claim that moral values are derived from religion, but I'm irreligious and yet have moral values (don't steal, liberty is good, etc.). These moral values do not come from any religion."

I still don't see a proof that these values cannot be shown to derive from religion.

None-of-these-values-can-be-shown-to-derive-from-religion,-and- certainly-not-from-the-Bible

Theists love to prance around making all sorts of absurd claims about the alleged morality of their murderous god. Davies' leaves the burden of proof solidly on you. See what you can do to rehabilitate your angry desert deity.

...erm, Davies is the one who has made a claim. Specifically, he said that "none of these can be shown to derive from religion, and certainly not from the Bible." The burden of proof is on the person who makes the claim; I'd be very interested to see such a proof. Like I said, I really enjoy proofs that something can't be proven.