Better reasons to quit Christianity

[Reforged]

Heres a good reason to quit Christianity;

'Nough said.

[The Grand Nudger]

[Undeceived]

Rhythm,
You just say that a precog has knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. They are "simply an observer." So how is knowing a choice and eliminating choice the same thing?
Are you implying that if there were any kind of precog, there would be no choice whatsoever? That simply knowing Joe will buy a car puts the decision out of his hands? Let me ask this: Into what hands is the decision put into? In the presence of a knowledge-only precog, who or what is determining reality?

[The Grand Nudger]

Rhythm,
You just say that a precog has knowledge, nothing more, nothing less. They are "simply an observer."

Correct, that's what I say, because that's what it means to be precognitive. To have knowledge of the future

So how is knowing a choice and eliminating choice the same thing?

How many times do I have to say "the precognitive doesn't have to be doing anything but observing the future." It isn't the precog eliminating the choice (at least, it doesn't have to be). It is a requirement of precognitive ability that precognitive experiences be accurate, the future cannot go some other way, or they are not precognitive. Knowledge, remember, not a best guess, or mostly accurate predictions. Knowledge.

Are you implying that if there were any kind of precog, there would be no choice whatsoever?

No, I'm not implying anything, I'm openly stating that there would be one very specific type of "choice", the illusory type. Not that this would mean much to us with our flawed perception of time and "choice". Nevertheless, what we perceive and what is actually occurring would not seem to be interchangeable once we invoke the precog.
(we could add some more depth to this to try and shoehorn the two together by the way, but that would be even worse for the judeo-christian god concept).

That simply knowing Joe will buy a car puts the decision out of his hands?

"Simply knowing" Does put it out of his hands. He cannot choose to not buy a car -if the precog can see it. Or else the precog is no such thing.

Let me ask this: Into what hands is the decision put into? In the presence of a knowledge-only precog, who or what is determining reality?

Try none, no hands, no decision? What determines the circumstances which leads to the "decision" would depend on the "decision", but it wouldn't alter the nature of that "decision" with regards to the precogs ability to experience predestined events. We could propose that a pancake set the events rolling, that neither the Precog nor Joe where there (or even aware that this occurred), that the pancake had no intentions, is not controlling anything, and has long since disintegrated....but the illusory nature of Joe's "decision" is made perfectly clear and plain the very moment the precog experiences it - assuming...that the precog is, in fact, precognitive. You could remove either "decision" or "precog" and you wouldn't have a problem. Which is why I asked which of the two was more important to you.

This really is exceedingly simple:
-If the precog is wrong, if Joe chooses a instead of the expected b, the precog is not a precog.

-If the precog has knowledge of the event before the fact, it can go no other way, and even though Joe may feel that he;s made a decision (maybe a fine decision even -we do love to categorize our decisions) the precog can see right through this, the precog knows that the events could have gone no other way.

---

I'm going to help you both out here, and offer an alternative.

Perhaps there is more than one stream of time. Perhaps a precog could experience all potential timelines (actualizing all of these potentials from the precogs vantage point in the process). Perhaps a precog can experience Joe choosing both a and b, and everything that happens as a result of that, all the way down the river of causality ad infinitum. Perhaps the precog can experience every divergent Joe, from every divergent choice, along every divergent timeline, simultaneously.

This sort of precognition would seem to handle my objections, at least at first glance (though I still have arguments to make) but it wouldn't actually fit very well with your myths, or your notion of choices and their consequences. For example, everytime Joe chose to believe in your deity or not believe in your deity ( to sin or not to sin), an equal amount of Joes would be both rewarded and damned. Along a potentially infinite line of choices and opportunities to make choices an infinite number of Joes would be both rewarded and damned. This is just one example of how doubling down on [unsubstantiated] crazy leads to weird ass shit.....

[spockrates]

No, i say god is a figment of peoples imagination, but what I;ve been saying in this thread, for the purposes of this discussion, is that the god described appears to be a precognitive entity...

Now THAT is helpful. Thank you! I owe you an apology for doubting your willingness to help me understand. What you said was clear, concise and cogent. Please give me some time to think about that.

[frankiej]

Dude, don't quote a massive bit for a single line reply.

[FallentoReason]

Heres a good reason to quit Christianity;

'Nough said.

Here's the real reason why I personally quit Christianity.

[Faith No More]

Here's the real reason why I personally quit Christianity.

That is not a reason to quit Christianity. That is a reason to commit suicide.

[FallentoReason]

Here's the real reason why I personally quit Christianity.

That is not a reason to quit Christianity. That is a reason to commit suicide.

Well, being an aspiring musician myself I realised life is still worth living.. I'm bound to be better than this kid at music!

[Faith No More]

As an inspiring musician you should want to off yourself knowing that you are of the same species as this kid.