Free will is an illusion

[FallentoReason]

I don't understand why we don't have free will. Didn't I just excercise free will just then when I decided to write this post? Or do I have the wrong idea of what free will is?

[The Grand Nudger]

Did you?

(lol, couldn't help myself)

[see what I did there?]

No, seriously, though we very much seem to perceive our lives as though we have "free will" our perceptions of reality aren't always entirely accurate.

As far as a resolution yay or nay. I (much like Pad) don't dwell on the subject. Regardless of whether or not this thing "free will" exists, and regardless of whether or not hard determinism confines me in any way I'm going to continue "making choices" and I am incapable of perceiving the flow of determinism to any extent that would make such knowledge useful for me (except in the most obvious and easily won particulars).

[FallentoReason]

Ha! Nice play on words there Rhythm. 'Determinism'... Never heard of it. Guess that gives me something new to research.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

There's quite a bit of credible evidence for determinism, you know, in that everywhere we look we find it.

Finding what one is looking for is also called 'conformation bias'. By 'credible' I mean using scientific method. Be most happy to see some specifics,or one..

Oh, at best, 'credible evidence' is prima facie,not proof.

[FallentoReason]

I feel like there's a double standard happening here. Why do we all agree that tangible evidence for a god (e.g. personal revelation) voids free will? We speak of free will in that instance as if there actually is free will, but then on this thread you all seem to agree that free will doesn't exist anyways..? I'm so confused.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

but then on this thread you all seem to agree that free will doesn't exist anyways..?

I have never claimed any such thing. I assert only it seems to me probable that free will is largely if not entirely an illusion. I do not claim to know one way or the other.

The issue confuses me too,because reason based on observation tells me free will is probably an illusion. My emotions insist free will is real.

[Cato]

Free will is an illuison? Let's consider Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.

I am sure that Beethoven composing his own Fifth Symphony isn't in dispute. Determinists now must claim that his Fifth Symphony was nothing more than a conglomeration of physical partical interaction in Beethoven's brain. If the deterministic view of things were to have any credibility then the random interactions of physical brain functions would spread musical genius across the species. The fact that there is only a small percentage of us with the capability of expressing ourselves expertly in this medium destroys determinism. I digress, let's stick to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.

Humans today have access to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony that Beethoven couldn't imagine. He wrote the piece for multiple instruments and could have never imagined an iPod.

Here's the mind fuck for determinists. A determinist must claim that every orchestra that has ever played Beethoven's Fifth Symphony was nothing more than a unique confluence of physical partical interaction. This says nothing about the humans and non-human resources involved in creating the instruments, the paper on which the music was copied, the building they are playing in, the clothing that the performers or spectators were wearing, the creation of the ads promoting the performance, etc. al. All of this must have happened without free-will according to the determinist.

Determinism is nothing more than the philosobable invoked by atheists that refuse to accept the idea of accountabilty. Accountabilty being nothing more than the simple recognition that human choices have consequences. Cause and effect is a real bitch. I happen to love that bitch.

[Forsaken]

I feel like there's a double standard happening here. Why do we all agree that tangible evidence for a god (e.g. personal revelation) voids free will? We speak of free will in that instance as if there actually is free will, but then on this thread you all seem to agree that free will doesn't exist anyways..? I'm so confused.

Its the rhetorical stance we take rather than believing freewill exists. For the sake of the discussion, we grant the theists their "freewill" and then try to point out the paradox.

However, as my xtian room-mate argues, the will of a person is free as long as s/he adheres (or is limited) to the Christian principles. Its freewill, but not free as the dictionary definition of free.

[DeistPaladin]

Determinism is nothing more than the philosobable invoked by atheists...

Just to be thorough about the discussion of this topic, Determinism can be atheistic or theistic.

Just like with the afterlife, you could make a quadrant showing how theism is a unrelated topic, probably more-so with Determinism.

1. God exists and we have free will
2. God exists and all is determined
3. God does not exist and we have free will.
4. God does not exist and all is determined.

I agree with the rest of your post that the Determinist must regard each and every apparent decision as an inevitability given every event before it. The absurdity of arguing about this topic is we have so little information right now that either side can only be asserted, not proven, and unlike with the issue of the existence of God, there is no side on which the burden of proof clearly falls.

[Angrboda]

Free will is an illuison? Let's consider Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.

I am sure that Beethoven composing his own Fifth Symphony isn't in dispute. Determinists now must claim that his Fifth Symphony was nothing more than a conglomeration of physical partical interaction in Beethoven's brain. If the deterministic view of things were to have any credibility then the random interactions of physical brain functions would spread musical genius across the species. The fact that there is only a small percentage of us with the capability of expressing ourselves expertly in this medium destroys determinism.

In addition to not understanding free will and determinism, your understanding of evolution looks rather suspect. Evolution dictates that all members of a species will show maximal fitness. Are you on crack?

I digress, let's stick to Beethoven's Fifth Symphony.

Indeed, let's talk about it, instead of spooging all rapturous and shit on everything. Last year I was discussing the singularity with a group of atheists, and someone brought up the composer John Cage as an example of something uniquely human, creativity. I pointed out that John Cage wouldn't have been John Cage were it not for a history of musical development preceding him, and John Cage wouldn't have been John Cage were it not for a mass of people familiar with the musical idioms that he was building upon, nor would John Cage have been John Cage if he hadn't spent years going on decades studying the work of composers and musicians before him. John Cage didn't materialize out of nowhere, fully formed and completely independent of what came before. John Cage was John Cage because he existed in a river of incremental improvement and development. Newton said that if he has seen a bit farther it is because he stood on the shoulders of giants. Apparently he was wrong. We are completely free and independent of anything that went before.

Here's the mind fuck for determinists. A determinist must claim that every orchestra that has ever played Beethoven's Fifth Symphony was nothing more than a unique confluence of physical partical interaction. This says nothing about the humans and non-human resources involved in creating the instruments, the paper on which the music was copied, the building they are playing in, the clothing that the performers or spectators were wearing, the creation of the ads promoting the performance, etc. al. All of this must have happened without free-will according to the determinist.

I think the real mind fuck is your belief that your arguments are anything but irrelevant and immaterial twaddle.

I suppose that next your going to argue that the cars built by robots don't exist, because obviously deterministic things like robots can't build anything complex or significant. I'm beginning to suspect you have more than casual familiarity with having one's mind fucked.

Determinism is nothing more than the philosobable invoked by atheists that refuse to accept the idea of accountabilty. Accountabilty being nothing more than the simple recognition that human choices have consequences. Cause and effect is a real bitch. I happen to love that bitch.

You love it, except when it counsels against your favorite warm fuzzy. Then you go all noodley and pear shaped.