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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 4:29 pm
No belief required Atom, morality very much appears to be precisley that [subjective]. Whether or not an objective morality might one day trot along, I couldn't say. I think Genk (just as one example) feels that such a morality is at least possible, if not existent at present.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:04 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 7:05 pm by Atom.)
(September 1, 2012 at 3:53 pm)Stimbo Wrote: Before we can answer that, it's necessary to know what, precisely, would constitute "an absolute external standard". If you can supply that, the discussion can proceed. I didn't have anything specific in mind for the meanings of these words, but here is something to work with:
absolute = the same for all people all the time.
external = originating from outside the person.
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:08 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 7:09 pm by Cyberman.)
No, I understand the individual words; it's merely the definition of their combination I was hoping to clarify. By "external absolute standard", were you referring to some god, the bible/kerrang or similar 'holy' writ, or something else?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:24 pm
So much text... so little attention to precious detail.
Theists claim their book has all the rules of morality.
Everyone else... well, in most of the world, have another book, let's call the "The Law". comprised of The Constitution, the Civil Code, the Penal Code and whatever else.
Inscribed there are all the rules of unacceptable behavior within our society and respective penalties.
This is not a static book, it keeps getting updated to suit the majority's views.... you've heard of democracy, right?
In the opposite corner, you get static religious books with strange rules and respective punishments... .well, maybe they weren't so strange back when they were written, but they are now.
The Law says: do not kill another human being... or you'll go to jail and, in some corners of the world, get killed.
This is where most people's morality comes from. The Law.
Theists like to pick and choose the parts of their holy texts that match The Law, while forgetting the others.
Unfortunately, there are countries where the holy text is The Law.... I'm glad I don't live in such place. 
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:26 pm
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:30 pm
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:35 pm
(September 1, 2012 at 7:30 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: But you want to sneak in "external standard" to the definition so you can say "God is external, ergo any rules he makes up are objective rules for us".
Yes, that's the impression I've been getting, which is why I've been asking Atom to define his terms before I, at, least, even consider the question. Call it my Civil Service background; I'm uneasy with the thought of answering a question that wasn't asked.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:36 pm
(September 1, 2012 at 3:43 pm)Atom Wrote: Based on the discussion here, is it reasonable to conclude that most of the atheists here believe morality is subjective (based on subjective empathy, culture, personal experiences, each person's genes, etc.) rather than objective (based on an absolute external standard)?
No, that's not the difference between atheists and Christians. I can show you that even in Christianity, morality is subjective and changing. How about we engage in a formal debate over this one?
I was supposed to go into a formal debate with someone on this in Christian Forums but I don't want to go back there. CF is a hell hole.
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:42 pm
(This post was last modified: September 1, 2012 at 7:43 pm by Atom.)
I think most of the people here have argued that morality is subjective and has its origins with individual thinking and evolutionary predispositions. This isn't the result I expected with my OP. I believed most atheists felt that there are overriding moral principles that could be called objective.
I have trouble even writing this first question in a coherent way because the term "better" calls for a subjective judgement, but here it is. If morality is subjective how can one person's view or one group's views be better than another?
If our morality is in a large part defined by evolution, how can we trust ourselves to make a subjective moral judgement. Isn't moral judgement then just the reflexive neural response of an electromechanical ape-like meat machine?
How can anyone claim the right to pass judgement on anyone else, since all morality would seem to have an equal footing?
This should be good to get some friendly discussions going.
Christianity is grounded in history, the facts of science, the rules of logic, and verifiable biblical truths.
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RE: Where do atheists get their morality from?
September 1, 2012 at 7:43 pm
(September 1, 2012 at 2:35 pm)Norfolk And Chance Wrote: (September 1, 2012 at 10:58 am)Red Celt Wrote: Fuck God. Fuck Sauron. Fuck the Pied Piper of Hamelin.
Well. That was easy enough.
Piece of cake isn't it?
Vinny?
Notice something? Vinny changed the subject. Vinny, are you a real atheist. Would you blaspheme God? You can ignore Sauron and the Pied Piper of Hamelin. I suggest you target your abusive blasphemy on ONLY "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit". If you are a true atheist, blasphemy shouldn't be a problem.
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