Why Secular Morality is Superior

[Savannahw]

I disagree that God is just or that we have to understand his actions to be just. If god gave us the ability to logic and reason, why should we not use those to question everything? Why would he allow the baby to be born? Why would he allow the woman to conceive and to make her carry the baby to term? Why make a woman a relatively innocent woman suffer just to kill one person? One person who has yet to commit supposedly terrible actions? Why wouldn't he have stopped countless genocides if that were the case? If God is just and Kills people based on future actions, why have murders taken place? If god has the ability to kill anyone any where anytime, Why would he allow the seriously deformed babies that only last a few hours or days to be born? Wouldn't stopping a murderer, a genocidal maniac or a seriously deformed human from being born in the first place have been better? If God allows those things to happen, Know what will happen, doing nothing, then does he not condone the actions? Is lack of action condoning, unwilling, not caring, or something else? Is their other action going on? Are you of the position that there is another force behind the evil actions in the world? Sry I rambled

[Simon Moon]

You don't know yet that you won't believe, unless you're claiming future knowledge. But let me assume that you're talking about a hypothetical.

You are correct, I may be presented with demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid & sound logic that supports the claim that a god exists. My atheism is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one.

But I do know how my mind works, and I am unable to hold a proposition to be true unless it meets the above criteria.

You deny the truth until you can no longer. He continually provides you with evidence to convince you, and at some point you'll realize that together with your full potential.

I do not deny truth. I deny theist's claims that they have the truth.

What has been provided to me as evidence, does not meet my burden of proof.

Muslims and Hindus tell me that they have evidence also. I'll bet you have no problem denying their 'truth'.

As we deduce that God must be just (by constructing a coherent model) then God can be no other. What isn't just cannot be God. Is this what you meant?

Yes, I meant that your unsupported assertions and circular logic are meaningless.

[Rahul]

You didn't say how you rationalise it being evil.

You want me to rationalize why it's not ok to kill babies?

I thought us atheists were supposedly the evil ones?

And the bible talks about god telling the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child (including babies) of entire cities. I seriously doubt every baby in that city was going to grow up to be worse than Hitler.

So god made that baby's soul knowing it was going to do something so bad when it grew up that he was going to kill it and send it to an eternity in hell.

Even realizing this he went ahead and created that soul.

So god made a soul for the express reason for it to be in eternal torment for all eternity.

I can't believe you really believe this shit.

Your god is fucking evil as all get out or it's just made up bullshit!

Grow up and quit believing in retarded shit.

[fr0d0]

I disagree that God is just or that we have to understand his actions to be just. If god gave us the ability to logic and reason, why should we not use those to question everything?

We should question everything. Absolutely. The bible exhorts us to too.

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Is lack of action condoning, unwilling, not caring, or something else? Is their other action going on? Are you of the position that there is another force behind the evil actions in the world?

Lack of action = choice.

God cares. Without freedom, there can't be love.

This physical reality is ethically neutral (at best). God is the positive force. What detracts from god is anti god.

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You don't know yet that you won't believe, unless you're claiming future knowledge. But let me assume that you're talking about a hypothetical.

You are correct, I may be presented with demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument and valid & sound logic that supports the claim that a god exists. My atheism is a provisional position, not a dogmatic one.

But I do know how my mind works, and I am unable to hold a proposition to be true unless it meets the above criteria.

Me too

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I do not deny truth. I deny theist's claims that they have the truth.

What has been provided to me as evidence, does not meet my burden of proof.

Muslims and Hindus tell me that they have evidence also. I'll bet you have no problem denying their 'truth'.

You cannot agree to any claim unless you understand the reasoning for it. No one could.

Some truths are shared. I disagree with some points, with reason. Just like you might.

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As we deduce that God must be just (by constructing a coherent model) then God can be no other. What isn't just cannot be God. Is this what you meant?

Yes, I meant that your unsupported assertions and circular logic are meaningless.

It's a logical model available for scrutiny. Where is the circularity? I don't think I've expressed it, so your claim here would be groundless.

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You didn't say how you rationalise it being evil.

You want me to rationalize why it's not ok to kill babies?

Plea to emotion

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And the bible talks about god telling the Israelites to kill every man, woman, and child (including babies) of entire cities. I seriously doubt every baby in that city was going to grow up to be worse than Hitler.

You doubt it, but you don't know. Because you are not God/ don't possess omniscience.

If God could know, and did. And justice would be served by death. What is your objection?

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So god made that baby's soul knowing it was going to do something so bad when it grew up that he was going to kill it and send it to an eternity in hell.

Would you rather justice not be served?

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Even realizing this he went ahead and created that soul.

What is the difference between this soul and any other? We're all susceptible to do good and bad stuff. Again, how are you justifying this individual's right to avoid justice?

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I can't believe you really believe this shit.

Your god is fucking evil as all get out or it's just made up bullshit!

Grow up and quit believing in retarded shit.

You need to find a reason why justice is perverted. Your plea here doesn't hold water, and your summation is inapplicable.

[Savannahw]

So we agree that If god create us, then he gave us the ability to question him. I also agree that lack of action is a choice. However I use my skills that were given by god, to determine that this lack of action is unjust. If god is al powerful and chooses not to over come the anti-god force he is not all good. If he can not he is not all-powerful. (I know this is the classic argument, and we will most likely not come to an agreement. I just saw the hole in the last page and had to speak up.)

[fr0d0]

So we agree that If god create us, then he gave us the ability to question him. I also agree that lack of action is a choice. However I use my skills that were given by god, to determine that this lack of action is unjust. If god is al powerful and chooses not to over come the anti-god force he is not all good. If he can not he is not all-powerful. (I know this is the classic argument, and we will most likely not come to an agreement. I just saw the hole in the last page and had to speak up.)

You just contradicted yourself there Savannah. If God is love and wants to love us, then he has to let evil exist to give us the freedom to choose love. If he removed the choice to love, then he couldn't love us. /You have to be given the choice of good or bad to be able to choose either. Without freedom, there cannot be love.

If you're suggesting that God could have removed that freedom, you are suggesting a reality without the possibility of love.

[Rahul]

You doubt it, but you don't know. Because you are not God/ don't possess omniscience.

This is one of the major problems that has plagued Christianity for centuries.

If god knows everything we do before we even exist then where is free will?

There is no free will. We're just acting out the script we're already committed to.

If you were a loving god would you create an eternal soul that you knew was doomed to hell before you even created it? That's not loving. That's EVIL. So you have to admit the god of the bible is EVIL.

[John V]

This is one of the major problems that has plagued Christianity for centuries.

If god knows everything we do before we even exist then where is free will?

There is no free will. We're just acting out the script we're already committed to.

If you were a loving god would you create an eternal soul that you knew was doomed to hell before you even created it? That's not loving. That's EVIL. So you have to admit the god of the bible is EVIL.

Your position is illogical. If god's omniscience means that our every thought and action are predetermined, then we're not autonomous beings with any rights at all. No one calls Stephen King evil because his characters suffer.

[Foxaèr]

No one calls Stephen King evil because his characters suffer.

At least you are heading in the right direction in comparing the biblical god with fiction.

[Whateverist]

Dumbass illogical atheists. Why can't they see that magic is the only possible explanation?