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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 4:56 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 2:39 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: DP is a vegan?!
Learn something new every day
The issue of animal rights vs. human rights is a complex one. I'm prepared to say that throwing a kitten off a cliff for fun is evil but hunting for food is justifiable. Perhaps I'm wrong and a vegan can make the case to me otherwise.
Now before you play the "ha ha, you don't have all the answers, therefore Jesus" card, let me remind you that this complexity doesn't give religious-based morality an edge.
Why?
Because religious-based morality arrives at the complexity of secular morals and then dumps a truckload of exalted-but-worthless "virtues" and victimless "sins" on top of it all.
John V can try to muddy up the waters but at the end of the day, he still hasn't justified why these "virtues" are really virtues or why these "sins" should be considered wrong. He has to accomplish this task or else admit that theistic morality is needlessly more complex than secular morality and therefore inferior.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 4:59 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 5:04 pm by fr0d0.)
(June 19, 2013 at 4:48 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: In my warped mind:
If you capture a hot babe in your war with your enemies and you want to ravish her, you have to give her a full month to mourn her family which you put to the sword (see Deut 20:13-14). After that point, you can rape her. We'll slap a "marriage" label on it to try to sanitize the rape but since her consent isn't requested or required, it's still rape. If you don't enjoy raping her, you have to let her go. You can't sell her.
So prove to us how you make this leap please DP. Surely you can show your exegesis of the text, and you're not just pulling all of this from your rectum?
(June 19, 2013 at 4:56 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: Because religious-based morality arrives at the complexity of secular morals and then dumps a truckload of exalted-but-worthless "virtues" and victimless "sins" on top of it all.
I pretty much concur with your stance on animal suffering Mr P.
The above statement continues with your absurd theme though. This isn't Christian morality at all, but a strawman to justify your otherwise fanciful dismissal. If you can't address serious opposition rather than this caricature then I think that speaks volumes of your credibility in it.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:08 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 4:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: So prove to us how you make this leap please DP. Surely you can show your exegesis of the text, and you're not just pulling all of this from your rectum?
I read what's there and put it in context with how virgin women are war booty throughout the OT.
First, the passage itself:
Nowhere in the entire passage is her consent either asked for or required. Neither is wooing ever part of the admonishment. It just says if you want her, take her, give her a month to mourn her family that you killed, and let her go if "she does not please you".
No consent = rape
You can slap the label "marriage" on it if you like but that does not sanitize rape.
As for context, I won't quote you every single passage where virgin women were taken as booty (you can use my handy list I provided earlier as a place to start) but here's a good example:
Quote:Deut 20:13-14 And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword:
But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
I'll resume the list I started earlier when I get home...
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:11 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 4:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: This isn't Christian morality at all
Your Bible disagrees.
Again, read the 10Cs if you don't have time to leaf through the Bible cover to cover, to read endless screeds against the "evils" of worshiping other gods or falling away from the faith. The first for of the 10 don't relate to any real moral principles at all! Of the 10, only four actually have anything to say about morality.
Last time I checked, 40% was an F.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:12 pm
Still you provide us with nothing DP.
Should I keep waiting?
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:14 pm
(June 19, 2013 at 5:12 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Still you provide us with nothing DP.
Should I keep waiting?
Speaking of nothing...
"Nuh uh" isn't an argument.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:16 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 5:18 pm by fr0d0.)
(June 19, 2013 at 5:11 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: (June 19, 2013 at 4:59 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: This isn't Christian morality at all
Your Bible disagrees.
Again, read the 10Cs if you don't have time to leaf through the Bible cover to cover, to read endless screeds against the "evils" of worshiping other gods or falling away from the faith. The first for of the 10 don't relate to any real moral principles at all! Of the 10, only four actually have anything to say about morality.
Last time I checked, 40% was an F.
To you, who doesn't get that God being good underpins morality, the "10Cs" make no sense.
If you had the slightest interest in investigating the problem honestly you'd see that.
Honesty doesn't concern you in this I think.
(June 19, 2013 at 5:14 pm)DeistPaladin Wrote: "Nuh uh" isn't an argument.
I couldn't have summited your argument better.
Come on DP give us one scrap of evidence to support your point. How long are you going you make us wait? This is getting tiresome.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:30 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 5:32 pm by DeistPaladin.)
(June 19, 2013 at 5:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: This is getting tiresome.
*Nod*
*Pulls down hat and ignores Frodo*
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 5:34 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 6:16 pm by Simon Moon.)
(June 19, 2013 at 5:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: To you, who doesn't get that God being good underpins morality, the "10Cs" make no sense.
If you had the slightest interest in investigating the problem honestly you'd see that.
Do you honestly think that commanding people not to covet your neighbor's wife is more important than say, commanding people not to rape, molest children, or own other people as property?
Every post by you is are perfect examples of how your beliefs have distorted your moral compass. Your beliefs force you to defend Yahweh's actions in the Bible as being just and moral, just because they come from Yahweh.
You are not a moral agent, because you don't evaluate what is moral. You are an order taker.
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: Why Secular Morality is Superior
June 19, 2013 at 6:31 pm
(This post was last modified: June 19, 2013 at 6:34 pm by fr0d0.)
Then you're not paying attention Simon.
Do they come from Yahweh? Are they inspired? Do they follow the reasoning of what Yahweh would be like?
No. 3. Don't be evil. Other gods = not gods. The worship of destructive forces. Condoning rape, greed, etc..
I cannot ignore my moral compass any more than you can. You suggest that I'm immoral based on what? Oh yes, misinformation: no one has shown how these examples prove injustice. I wait with baited breath. I may die of asphyxiation quite soon.
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