America's War on Drugs

[KichigaiNeko]

Clearly mehmet you have not lived at all. WTF do you guys DO in Turkey??


Not much it would seem and your education system is lacking. Worse than the USA I would wager.

[The Grand Nudger]

There was, if I recall correctly, a study of late that claimed that long term (>15 years) usage of marijuana correlated to an 8 point drop in IQ.

Meh, they can have 80 points and I'll still be able to field a more competent argument for legalization than is made for continued prohibition.

The legislation itself is ineffective and costly. It creates lucrative opportunities for violent individuals and interests. The market is so vast and well developed (and the interests so thoroughly criminal) that it can fuel national instability at it's point of production. It leads to a lack of screening or quality control - motherfuckers are smoking raid (and whatever else might get sprayed, without proper controls)........and then, when it does "work" we end up with prisons literally overflowing with non-violent offenders charged and sentenced for victimless crimes.

[festive1]

I'd deal with none, if I had the chance. I can tell you here and now, that most drunkards, and most stoners, and other types of junkies are people of low education, low life standards, and people who have faced serious problems in their past.

In whole, that doesn't concern anyone. It's not me who is going to tell people how to get over their psychological issues. They can use marijuana or any other drug if they wish to do so.

However, marijuana, like all drugs, cause you to focus on yourself alone. You just sit there, in thoughts, laughing to yourself, or dreaming about something for how long the drug takes it. If you have a steady supply, who's going to stop you?

Man... There are TONS of very well educated and intelligent people who fall into addiction. The thought that addiction is limited to those of low social standing is simply and irrefutably false.

PTSD. Post-traumatic-stress-disorder. Every single study I've seen on this subject where marijuana was included as a treatment option says that marijuana is one of the best drugs to combat this debilitating disorder. Even military studies.

And finally, one doesn't need a drug to focus on themselves. Actually, addiction isn't about focusing on oneself, it's a way of AVOIDING oneself, one's emotions, and forgetting undesirable events or aspects of oneself.

[thesummerqueen]

I want to take this step by step. These are all Kilic's quotes, unless otherwise indicated.

People who want to speak of heavy taxation and revenues for the government from the drug money are fools, who put short term "benefits" without thinking of long term damages, like true capitalists.
Drugs have been fought in many countries before the US war on drug was fought. China, with it's multitude of people was struck by opium, which led the government to seize opium and destroy en masse, while the imperialist Britain sought to re-establish this lucrative trade.

I'm sure if marijuana sale(and with it, sales of harder drugs will follow) and production is made legal, I'm sure we'll see a lot more opium wars in the future.

This doesn’t follow: having a government GET money from drugs does not produce the same results as a government trying to destroy drugs. China sought to destroy opium, creating a black market niche that Britain filled. In a (hopefully) more enlightened age, decriminalizing the use of such drugs but instead taxing those who sell it and buy it, as well as demanding standards of purity.

Taxed, you say. Meaning you think of allowing the production and sale of marijuana, and perhaps other drugs in the US for recreational use, to turn this willing poisoning of your people legal by the state, to "profit" from it.
I'm not really sure how well you profit from the existing taxt revenues, and how the people here tell me that the rich are not taxed enough.
I'm sure the big drug barons of today will turn into emperors of their own right in the future, if you actually want to legalize the production, sale and import of these drugs. And I'm certain with the vision of your free market economy, you will force other countries to legalize marijuana and other drugs in their respective countries, and declare war upon them if they don't.

As I said, legalization for personal use is fine, but the selling and and production of such things should be stricly prohibited, and those who still continue to violate international laws should be punished in the most severe means possible, including death.

1) People are already willingly poisoning themselves. Prescription drugs are an excellent example. So is glue. People want to get to altered states of being. Or poison themselves by getting morbidly obese with fatty foods. It hits the pleasure center of the brain. Criminalizing ANY of those things isn’t going to solve the problem: educating people on how the brain works and what the substances do WILL.
2) Rich people being or not being taxed enough doesn’t have anything to do with additional revenue from controlled substances. Personal income tax is not the same as tax on trade.
3) The drug barons are already emperors because they know people want their hooch/blow/etc and thus can charge whatever they want. Legalizing drugs merely legalizes the supply for a demand, and competition to provide the best quality vs price value helps, not hurts.
4) I have no idea how you jumped to us forcing other countries to legalize anything. Keep your shit illegal – I’m sure we have better things to worry about at the moment. Until you can back up your western conspiracy mongering, quit boring us all with it.
5) Death? Really?

How nice, really. Grand-uncle and nephew smoke such things together. I'm sure it's a sign of how well your nation developes, eh?
I see this as a sign of depravity and destruction of family virtues. Family members are not ashamed of eachother anymore. Soon, the people on the streets will not be ashamed of eachother anymore, and the streets will turn into a pile of every depraved vice and lawlessness.
Way to go in destroying your society, friend.

Your opinions of morality are subjective. I’m not sure how enjoying a joint together rips apart the fabric of society – but don’t bother to explain…I’m quite certain it will be much like all your other explanations of society’s ills.

What you say should be illegal is "prescription drugs". Well, obviously these drugs are sold via prescriptions, and are there to help the people. What is this marijuana that you so glorify? What makes it so much better that medicine, produced by pharmacists and approved by doctors, should be illegal and this plant you use to escape the world be legal instead?
Well, I think you people are demented, and should be put on serious prescription drugs.p

Here’s the crux: no one who has read the literature on marijuana, a plant with both medicinal AND practical applications (it’s not just a hallucinogen, you know – hemp is extraordinarily useful as a fiber), would say something so pathetically stupid. You, as I’ve already stated, are going based solely on your own biases, not on actual science. You think prescription drugs are always the safest things? They’re prescribed and always have instructions on them because if used in ways OTHER than their instructions state, they are at best ineffective and at worse life-threatening. Marijuana has proved time and again to be extremely beneficial for a variety of medical uses.

It's just a better alternative to using "Prescription" drug's which are not meant to fix the problem but slightly make it a little better so you continue to need them and never go back to 100% health.

Please tell me you’re joking – I didn’t go through a UTI and the course of treatment I just went through to get only “slightly better”. Prescription drugs do not exist to cause dependencies. Big Pharma is not out to “get” people.

Alcohol is one thing, but we all know our limits. Besides, we do not partake in excessive alcohol in front of our elders.

Hahahaha, maybe you don’t. Maybe you’ve never seen others do it. I highly doubt your whole country consists of such squares. Humans are humans, despite your implications otherwise depending on nation of origin.

We do, but alcohol is one thing, and marijuana is another. Let's compare a family dinner with raki to a family bong party. Right, they are similar. Besides, our elders always tell us to abstain from bad things, whereas this man's elder has no objections of his grand-nephew smoking a hallucinogenic drug before his eyes, which is something I deem to be an unabashed form of behaviour.

LMAO. I can’t take this statement seriously: I’m pretty sure if they tell you not to use the bad things, it’s so there’s more for them.

Our family is a family of well-behaved, well-mannered and well-educated people with a good reputation. Religious taboos were never a too strictly enforced thing in our family, yet our customs and culture(even during the times when opium was commonly eaten) does not allow for such psychedelic and hallucinogenic drugs to be used within the vicinity of family members, or within generic society.
Even if a person of my family were to use drugs, we would have no knowledge of it, for he'd hide it out of his shame, and once we'd learn it, we'd active seek to free him from this vice of his, not tell him "That's okay, lemme take a hit.".

Taking a hit off a joint doesn’t have anything to do with being well-mannered, well-behaved and well-educated with a stellar reputation. Since you’re basing everything off your own experience and not off anything objectively viewed by science and psychology, let me give you another personal anecdote: my boyfriend, the first official boyfriend I’ve had in 5 years because my standards demand I don’t link myself to someone who is less than the excellent individual he is, makes good cash, drives a very nice car, is saving great sums of money to buy a house hopefully before the year is out, has a high IQ level, dresses like a guy out of the swank 50’s with manners and behavior even YOU would approve of, manages his own photography studio AND guess what? He LOVES taking a hit off a joint now and then. I’m not ashamed of him in the slightest – nor is his mother, who is deservedly proud of how he turned out.

That's due to the rightful stigma attached to marijuana use, and the fact that it's not easily available in stores. If it were to be legalized, I'm sure that we'd have another ban coming for it right away.

“Rightful”? What EXACTLY does marijuana do to deserve its reputation? Here in the prudish US, its only problem is that conservatives would rather you be lazy in a church pew rather than lazing around watching cartoons.

I'd like to have a world where no one would have to resort to things like marijuana to have an artificially induced dopamine release, but I guess we don't live in such a world, and some people are desperate to find happiness in small things like drugs.

Some people need artificial means to create a dopamine release, and also “happiness” is not the only reason for drugs – although you seem to waffle back and forth on whether or not it’s okay for marijuana to exist at all because of its medical benefits.

Lol as much as you want to. I'm just giving you and your grand-uncle as an example of how drugs and drug users have become shameless as to do their thing in front of their fellow family members.
Like if you two were of the same age, and like cousins or something, I'd probably had not given the same reaction. But this behavour of yours transcends all elder-youth relations and limits, especially those within family.

Values change over time. “Drug use” was not “shameful” at one point.

Does that change the fact that it's a socially destructive drug?

How? Because of the wars fought because of its legality? What makes it destructive when legal?

And during that time, opium usage was strictly banned in England, Scotland and Ireland, with harsh punishments while the poison was sold elsewhere.

We lacked the science and facilities needed to care for people who wished to indulge. Hang-gliding’s pretty dangerous too – want to outlaw it? No, of course not – it’s not “mind-altering”.

Why I am so harsh with you is because the way you behave about drugs is a dangerous way to behave.

I happen to think your attitude is what keeps these drugs dangerous.

Parents shouldn't be mad when they catch their children smoking marijuana in their rooms, they should instead smoke along with them. Because marijuana is better than cigarettes, right?

No, they should smoke along with them for the same reason my dad and I sit down and have beers together.

Constructive my ass. Like what, writing song lyrics?

Boyfriend takes a break from difficult studio issues to light one up and gain fresh perspective. Friend of mine was just named Division Manager for the homebuilder he works for – he lights one up before he writes all his reports, reviews and many other things. And those song writers? Even Penn & Teller, who hate the Grateful Dead and don’t do drugs, admitted that they were some of the hardest working “song-writers” – incredibly successful. Bill Maher – active advocate for pot, also has his fingers in many media outlets and works hard every day. I know artists who smoke up and produce their art. What do you do sober that sets you apart from the successful people who smoke up?

If you need a drug to become a calm, sincere, non-violent, happy and constructive person, you don't need marijuana, you need a shrink, friend.
You need to be on medicine, if that drug is all that keeps you from being deceptive, angry, violent and sad person. Really, I think you're seriously fooling yourself. You only smoke marijuana to become happy or do something with your excessive free time, for people only resort to drugs if they are either physically/emotionally addicted, or if they're so fucking bored due to the large amounts of empty leisure time, that they need something that makes time go faster, or more enjoyably. Constructive, I bet you finish your homework in an hour after smoking a blunt, yes.

Marijuana IS medicine, you waffling child.

Well, alcohol is a beverage, friend. Not a "drug". You speak of it as though it were the same as marijuana, which makes you giggle at pictures at the wall, what a thing, that you'd like to partake with your business co-workers in an official meeting, instead of a glass of wine or a few beers.

Alcohol is a drug. It is not the same as marijuana. Not all drugs were “created” equal. Alcohol happens to be worse. Get a grip.

The quantity of alcohol you need to impair your judgement as to liken the effect of marijuana is obviously a high amount. Besides, it doesn't really matter whether you get your THC from bongs, tea or vaporizors.
Maybe it's better if we had made THC into pills or nose sprays, as to provide you people with better alternatives to get high, but I'm sure that those, although a lot lot more potent than the grass you smoke now, will be on par with cocaine and other hard drugs in terms of expense.

Heh – so you’re completely ignorant of what you’re talking about: we DO have different ways of distributing THC into the body, you moog, and it doesn’t put it on par with cocaine.

To me, anything that clouds the mind is the same.

Oh, so alcohol IS the same as marijuana, but it’s NOT a drug? It’s a mind-altering substance, you know.

I also fully support 100% legalisation for personal use and personaly use only. Because it's just you.

Several “personals” make up a society. I don’t understand how personal legalization doesn’t link up with societal legalization. I can personally enjoy alcohol – so can the rest of society. Where on earth did you learn to lay out an argument?

And since you propose that it should be taxed, you're practically suggesting that the government should disregard social order and stability for simple monetary gain which will in turn, be used to probably clean after the mess of what these drugs, after becoming legal, have done to society.

No, actually, I want regulation from government agencies because despite cries from some of our other members, government regulation IS better than private regulation – therein lies the difference between public and personal gain. Don’t turn this into a government conspiracy now.

In whole, that doesn't concern anyone. It's not me who is going to tell people how to get over their psychological issues. They can use marijuana or any other drug if they wish to do so.

Right – legalize them.

However, marijuana, like all drugs, cause you to focus on yourself alone. You just sit there, in thoughts, laughing to yourself, or dreaming about something for how long the drug takes it. If you have a steady supply, who's going to stop you?

Who on earth have you been hanging around? My boyfriend has no problem having a steady stash on hand for whenever he feels like using it, and yet he takes the time to worry about not just himself and his girlfriend (granted, I make a great incentive) but his family AND an extended network of friends. Same with the last guy I dated. Same with a lot of my friends. If those people you’ve seen get caught up in themselves, my friend they are ridiculously selfish people PERIOD – the drug merely enhanced what was already there.

But in my country, gambling is now forbidden by law, and casinos have been closed to stop the ever growing numbers of gamblers, people who have been blinded by the promise of "easy money", but instead end up losing, but never giving up hope...

I know plenty of people also who gamble but don’t have a problem holding back. That’s a personal problem – not a “societal” problem. You can’t seem to decide whether you like government intervention or not.

Yes, many have quoted things from different websites. I'm already familiar with this. In the same way, coffee, can also be classified as a "drug" perhaps, it does not have the same effect as alcohol, but it certainly soothes you, and is quite addictive, and I ought to admit that I'm a caffeine addict.
However, I'm not sure what kind of an influence my caffeine addiction has on my life, or the people that live around me.

On the other hand, alcohol does not share the same public acceptance as alcohol, and never did.
And it was not used by the people under the same context, either.
It being classified as a "drug" doesn't mean it's the same as ilicit drugs.

Advil and morphine are both pain relievers, but one is controlled and the other isn’t because of the strengths and effects. They’re still both drugs. When I’m ‘high’ on caffeine, I have decreased coordination, increased agitation and many other symptoms. When I’m on alcohol I have much worse symptoms that are actually dangerous. What we’re trying to say is that of the drugs still listed as illicit, marijuana is like the coffee portion – if there’s symptoms, they’re certainly not dangerous. As for public acceptance, this has nothing to do with its validity as a ‘dangerous’ substance or not – public opinion does not equate to science. In fact, public opinion is dangerously changeable.

But I could certainly say that the numbers of stoners are a lot higher amongst the lower stratas of society, which I attribute to the higher stress that these people face and the lack of other recreational activities that these people can participate in, due to their lack of funds.

What does that have to do with anything beyond a prejudice against poor people? Do you think people who can afford more drugs don’t do other drugs that cost more instead? Get a grip – Lindsey Lohan has enough money to make most of those people blush for shame at her bank account and she continues to fall back into rehab.

People who are chronic marijuana users are rarely people who are of middle class(i.e. better education, better familial values, better social standing overall).

Wrong, as I’ve already stated. I strongly expect, if it were legalized, that you would find it was pretty evenly distributed amongst the economic strata.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Kilic, you're falling into your own bias.

I guess you can just call it bias when you can't say anything else.
Illicit drugs are not a matter of bias, friend.

As someone who used to work at a liquor store, I can tell you that the only difference between alcohol and illicit drugs is the legal status.

I don't know how working at a liquor store is going to make your statements more true or believable, but I too know people who are alcoholics. Say that these alcoholics would smoke marijuana rather than alcohol. Would they have been in a better state? I don't think so.

Anything you can or have said against illicit drugs can be said about alcohol.

I'm not defending alcohol in terms of how it can ruin a person's life, or have a negative impact on society and family if it is used untimely, and in excess.
Alcohol is now a part of accepted social life. There are bars, pubs restaurants and etc. in which alcohol is treated as a beverage, rather than a drug to get high. Besides, most people do not drink to get drunk. I personally don't.

So ask yourself, what is it about alcohol that you are okay with it being legal?

Alcohol is a beverage that is well integrated into society.
Besides, alcohol does not have hallucinogenic properties. Even if you get drunk, you have a hangover the next day, and then you don't drink for the day, or for extended periods of time, if you're a normal, well-behaving drinker. On the other hand, marijuana is nothing like it. It makes you lazy, and psychologically dependent, if you nothing better to do.
Alcohol too, can be like that, but you ought to consume a lot more than you have to usually with marijuana. If alcoholics were introduced into marijuana, I'm guessing that they would attach themselves to marijuana than to alcohol.

Notice how alcohol scores higher on the harm rating than not only marijuana (cannabis), but LSD, ecstasy, tobacco, amphetamines and ketamines.

I'm taking a look at the graph, but I really don't know what the exact variables are. Without variables graphs mean nothing to me.

Like, according to this graph, Solvents, like for example toluene that I've previously mentioned, are said to be less dangerous than cannabis, although I can positively state from personal experience that solvents are more destructive than any of the stuff that is mentioned above.
When they mean harm, I have no real idea what they mean by "harm". Harm to user? Harm to the people who are close to the user? What kind?

Some of these things are outlawed yet others are completely legal, despite some of them clearly being more dangerous than others.

The reason why some appear to be more dangerous than other is due to their legality. If alcohol and tobacco, were to be illegal, they'd rank below cannabis, but if cannabis were to be legal, it'd probably take up it's place above both.

If that's the case Mehmet you should be taking equal case with not just weed but alcohol. You don't seem to be doing that here.

As I said, alcohol is a different case than the others. Unlike illicit drugs, it has a larger social acceptance, and finds itself a broader range of applications in society.
Where exactly do drugs fit in?

My position however is that all drugs should be legal because we should have the freedom to put into our body what we want, no matter how stupid that thing you want to put into your body is.

Well, I'm not concerned with what you put in your body.
I'm concerned with how it will impact society. I only oppose the legal sale and production of illicit drugs. But the rest is not really my responsibility.

and chastise us for using drugs which THEY don't approve of.

Well, I'm sure that they'd profit a lot more from cannabis and other types of drugs like cocaine and heroin, since they are obviously easier to manufacture than alcohol, which needs time, and tobacco, which needs more space, time and workers.

Once that's done, I'm sure that every government will realize it's mistake and forbid the sale and production of illicit drugs once again, but until then, it will have claimed the lives of how many, and caused social collapse which degrees, who knows.

Clearly mehmet you have not lived at all. WTF do you guys DO in Turkey??

What do you mean by what?
I don't understand you, really, as like the best thing your life ought to be drugs. Well actually, for a person who uses drugs on a regular basis, the best thing in their lives ought to be drugs, because I'm not sure what you can do that'd give you more pleasure than the artificial dopamine dispensers that you poison your bodies with. You cannot even think of a life in which a person who had stayed clean can be "happy" and occupied.

Not much it would seem and your education system is lacking. Worse than the USA I would wager.

Our education system lacks in many areas. Which areas do you specifically refer to?

Man... There are TONS of very well educated and intelligent people who fall into addiction. The thought that addiction is limited to those of low social standing is simply and irrefutably false.

I'm not limiting addiction to the lower classes. But I'm saying is that drug addictions mostly run rampart in the lower classes of society.
For example, you don't go to a suburban middle class neighborhood to buy your drugs, instead you go to either a lower class neighborhood, or a place in the city where all classes can be found.

This is due to the fact that drug-dealing is in itself the profession of a lower class person, and that drug addicts usually live in the neighborhoods where the dealers have camped in.
Drug addictions are mostly a problem of lower classes. The fact that there are drug addicts that come from higher social standings does not change that fact.

Every single study I've seen on this subject where marijuana was included as a treatment option says that marijuana is one of the best drugs to combat this debilitating disorder.

Well, not the plant itself, but the THC inside. If THC is such a potent chemical that can be used to treat psychological illnesses, it can be put into the form of pills, injections and other things, things that do not have the impurities which you draw into your lungs when you smoke marijuana through bongs, cigarettes and etc.

And finally, one doesn't need a drug to focus on themselves.

Some people do.
I personally have used toluene for that end.

Actually, addiction isn't about focusing on oneself, it's a way of AVOIDING oneself,

Well, I think it's quite the opposite when one thinks in terms of psychological addiction.
You cannot avoid yourself, nor your responsibilities. They'll eventually find you. However, drugs are quite well a method to avoid thinking about them.
When you don't think about them, you mostly think of yourself.

one's emotions, and forgetting undesirable events or aspects of oneself.

My experiences, of course, they're mine, not everyone's, have been quite the reverse. When I'm on drugs, I'm very emotional, and tend to become emotional when I think of undesirable events, whereas while sober, I might not have reacted in such ways.

[thesummerqueen]

Here: let's start compiling a list of all the things that are legal that *could* affect society, and let's discuss why no one's made them illegal yet (or illegal in all states/countries).

Driving whilst talking on a cellphone/texting
Driving whilst excessively tired
Driving whilst talking to your passengers/eating/drinking/yelling at your kids
Riding bicycles on the road (sometimes we have bike lanes, but more than often we don't and people ride them in the street).
All contact sports: because c'mon, you can say its your right to bash your head in, but there's usually other people on the field being affected - what about them?
TV shows or movies that glorify violence or teach people how to do violent things
Sex without condoms
Sharing food or drinks - you could be passing a virus and not know it.
Selling fattening foods
Indoctrinating your child into religion

Add yours! I'm sure I could come up with more, but I'm at work.

---

My experiences, of course, they're mine, not everyone's, have been quite the reverse. When I'm on drugs, I'm very emotional, and tend to become emotional when I think of undesirable events, whereas while sober, I might not have reacted in such ways.

Then don't do drugs. Don't make them illegal for anyone else who can handle them.

[kılıç_mehmet]

My reply to the Summer Queen.

This doesn’t follow: having a government GET money from drugs does not produce the same results as a government trying to destroy drugs. China sought to destroy opium, creating a black market niche that Britain filled. In a (hopefully) more enlightened age, decriminalizing the use of such drugs but instead taxing those who sell it and buy it, as well as demanding standards of purity.

You lack vision, friend.
The reason why Chinea sought to destroy opium was due to the widespread usage of opium, and the ever increasing users of opium.
Before that, opium used to be legal in Qing China, whereas the taxation thereof made the English suppliers smuggle opium into China through various means, while taking the profits.

Even if the Chinese government would have taxed opium, what can you do with a country full of opium addicts?
Likewise, you can tax the legal sale of drugs as much as you want.
You cannot tax them beyond a certain level, however, which will increase the prices, and people who cannot buy drugs will eventually resort to buying from illegal salesmen or resort to crime and other means to supply themselves with their drug of choice.
Like, cigarettes, for example.
Here, the tax on the sale of cigarettes is very high, and people still buy them, even if they have to spend a portion of their hard earned money. It's making money off of addicts. However, cigarettes do not cause the same social damage as illicit, psychedelic and hallucinogenic drugs do.
As you can see, alcohol wasn't banned in China, whereas opium was. I wonder why.

1) People are already willingly poisoning themselves. Prescription drugs are an excellent example. So is glue. People want to get to altered states of being. Or poison themselves by getting morbidly obese with fatty foods. It hits the pleasure center of the brain. Criminalizing ANY of those things isn’t going to solve the problem: educating people on how the brain works and what the substances do WILL.
2) Rich people being or not being taxed enough doesn’t have anything to do with additional revenue from controlled substances. Personal income tax is not the same as tax on trade.
3) The drug barons are already emperors because they know people want their hooch/blow/etc and thus can charge whatever they want. Legalizing drugs merely legalizes the supply for a demand, and competition to provide the best quality vs price value helps, not hurts.
4) I have no idea how you jumped to us forcing other countries to legalize anything. Keep your shit illegal – I’m sure we have better things to worry about at the moment. Until you can back up your western conspiracy mongering, quit boring us all with it.
5) Death? Really?

1-The government exists there to protect the people from harm.
Education is of course a good thing, but this should not mean that the government should make the said substances easily accessible to the public.
2-Is it? Personal income comes from the income of your business. Why do you think that many people commit tax frauds? Besides, I'm sure that if legalized, drugs will be international, multi-trillion dollar businesses which will control politicians.
Besides, you can only tax things like drugs to a certain degree. If you tax them enough to raise the prices, illegal trade will boom.
But taxing them too low will make them accessible to every strata of society. Drugs are a lose-lose game, both legal and illegal.
3-Meaning that you're okay with illicit drugs being sold at stores and markets. This will eliminate the losses that drug barons have to keep up with during the current drug laws, and turn into better profits for them, while they will probably get into advertising and other things to make poison more desirable and of course, used more extensively by others.
I think that legalizing drugs is just another step to a worldwide social collapse.
4-Who are you to worry? Besides, it's not you who is going to do anything. You'll probably be too fucked by drugs to care, whereas other countries who do not want poison to be legal will be forced by other countries to make it legal. Just like they were forced to make it illegal.

For example, my country used to produce opium. After united pressure from the US and other countries, we halted the production of opium. Now we only produce very small amounts that are used in the production of painkillers such as morphine.
And you tell me that countries who host large companies who are involved in the sale and production of drugs won't pressure you to pressure us to allow their drugs in?
If the US legalizes production and sale of drugs, it'll be done the same in every other other country.

5-Yes, death.

Your opinions of morality are subjective. I’m not sure how enjoying a joint together rips apart the fabric of society – but don’t bother to explain…I’m quite certain it will be much like all your other explanations of society’s ills.

Enjoy your joint. I'm not really concerned with a small amount of individuals using drugs.
This still does not change the fact that illicit drugs have a great potential to be the greatest of social ills if they were to be legal for sale and production.
My moral standards are bent on keeping society clean in general, cherishing what is good and useful, while ousting what is harmful and useless.

Here’s the crux: no one who has read the literature on marijuana, a plant with both medicinal AND practical applications (it’s not just a hallucinogen, you know – hemp is extraordinarily useful as a fiber), would say something so pathetically stupid. You, as I’ve already stated, are going based solely on your own biases, not on actual science. You think prescription drugs are always the safest things? They’re prescribed and always have instructions on them because if used in ways OTHER than their instructions state, they are at best ineffective and at worse life-threatening. Marijuana has proved time and again to be extremely beneficial for a variety of medical uses.

I am not stating that marijuana, and other illicit drugs lack any medicinal properties. As a matter of fact, most illicit drugs of today were actually produced by pharmacists, or were part of traditional medicines around the world.
However when people began to use them to fill gaps in their leisure time, or when these drugs forced leisure time to take over parts of a person's work, study and social life, they were deemed to be dangerous, and were illegalized.
IF they have medicinal properties, and are ought to be treated as medicine, they should be at the hands of doctors, not ordinary people.

Hahahaha, maybe you don’t. Maybe you’ve never seen others do it. I highly doubt your whole country consists of such squares. Humans are humans, despite your implications otherwise depending on nation of origin.

Well, it's not about being a square. It's about self control and respect.
Only a person that lacks these qualities would make a fool out of himself in front of his family with a drunken state of being.

Humans are humans alright, but not every human is the same as the other. Some are above others with the way they behave, and are treated accordingly by others.

LMAO. I can’t take this statement seriously: I’m pretty sure if they tell you not to use the bad things, it’s so there’s more for them.

Joke all you want. My statement still stands.

Taking a hit off a joint doesn’t have anything to do with being well-mannered, well-behaved and well-educated with a stellar reputation. Since you’re basing everything off your own experience and not off anything objectively viewed by science and psychology, let me give you another personal anecdote: my boyfriend, the first official boyfriend I’ve had in 5 years because my standards demand I don’t link myself to someone who is less than the excellent individual he is, makes good cash, drives a very nice car, is saving great sums of money to buy a house hopefully before the year is out, has a high IQ level, dresses like a guy out of the swank 50’s with manners and behavior even YOU would approve of, manages his own photography studio AND guess what? He LOVES taking a hit off a joint now and then. I’m not ashamed of him in the slightest – nor is his mother, who is deservedly proud of how he turned out.

I belive you haven't read what I've written.
This is not about him. He can use a marijuana cigarette now and then, he's not married, has no children, lives alone, or has no girlfriend who objects that he is using marijuana.
I'm talking about the family, in which certain things ought not to be allowed. I did say this in reply to the guy who smoked marijuana in front of an elder family member.
Does your boyfriend smoke marijuana in front of his parents or family members? Or does he constantly mention how much he loves to smoke marijuana in front of them?
I guess not.

“Rightful”? What EXACTLY does marijuana do to deserve its reputation? Here in the prudish US, its only problem is that conservatives would rather you be lazy in a church pew rather than lazing around watching cartoons.

It is a hallucinogenic drug. It's more than enough, I believe.
Why would I advocate it's use? Why should anyone advocate it's use?
Besides, you don't need to be in church. You can always do something more productive with your time, although most of us are not fit to do this. We rather be lazy anywhere, church, home, watching cartoons.
But church and cartoons do not give you the same amount of pleasure as a psychedelic and hallucinogenic drug.

Some people need artificial means to create a dopamine release, and also “happiness” is not the only reason for drugs – although you seem to waffle back and forth on whether or not it’s okay for marijuana to exist at all because of its medical benefits.

If it has medicinal benefits, it should not be dispensed to people who are in need of these benefits in a cigarette, but in pills, tablets and other means of methods, like other forms of medicine.
As I said, many other illicit drugs have some sort of medicinal significance.

Values change over time. “Drug use” was not “shameful” at one point.

Was it not? Which point in time was that I wonder.
Drunkenness and the state of mind of the drugged man, both were considered to be shameful in most civilized societies.
That was the reason why drug use was mostly confined to enclosed spaces, like dens, coffee houses and etc. too keep them out of the rest of the society, and people would go there because they felt shame in doing this in front of normal society.

How? Because of the wars fought because of its legality? What makes it destructive when legal?

Social collapse. If such drugs were to be too popular with the public, they would cause people to neglect real life in favor of the artifical induced happiness. Is it not what most addicts do? They form their lives around the drug.

We lacked the science and facilities needed to care for people who wished to indulge. Hang-gliding’s pretty dangerous too – want to outlaw it? No, of course not – it’s not “mind-altering”.

An accident that happens through hang-gliding kills you. Your family are devastated, and mourn your death.
People who are addicts are in a state worse than death. They have really nothing else to live for than the drug. The drug is their life.
What if they never had started to use the poison? They would have never wished for it. It's very much like a smoker, not really remembering how it was before he began smoking. I sometimes wonder how did I get through the day before I began inhaling smoke into my lungs? I can't really figure it out, therefore I keep smoking.
If I had never started it, I would have never thought of smoking.

I happen to think your attitude is what keeps these drugs dangerous.

Really? Explain.

No, they should smoke along with them for the same reason my dad and I sit down and have beers together.

Then go and smoke marijuana with your father and mother.
If they refuse, bicker at them for being such squares and how beer and marijuana is on the same level.

Boyfriend takes a break from difficult studio issues to light one up and gain fresh perspective. Friend of mine was just named Division Manager for the homebuilder he works for – he lights one up before he writes all his reports, reviews and many other things. And those song writers? Even Penn & Teller, who hate the Grateful Dead and don’t do drugs, admitted that they were some of the hardest working “song-writers” – incredibly successful. Bill Maher – active advocate for pot, also has his fingers in many media outlets and works hard every day. I know artists who smoke up and produce their art. What do you do sober that sets you apart from the successful people who smoke up?

I've given the songwriting example due to the fact that it's the most given example when it comes to how marijuana affects "productivity".

I am always sober when I am doing something that is related to my studies, line of work and etc. Even while doing casual things like gamig, I'm not really sure how partaking in drugs is going to positively affect your performance. Besides, I've said this in response to the post that stated that marijuana supposedly increases productivity in someone. I'm fairly curious how many of my professors have done their theses while being under the influence of any drug.
These things only serve to glorify something beyond what it really is.
It's really pathetic, I think.

Marijuana IS medicine, you waffling child.

As much as heroin and cocaine.

Alcohol is a drug. It is not the same as marijuana. Not all drugs were “created” equal. Alcohol happens to be worse. Get a grip.

I think we're going nowhere with this. I can't get you people to understand, that marijuana does not have the same accessibility and popularity as alcohol, for good reason. If it did, people would stop using alcohol, and alcohol would be considered less dangerous.

Heh – so you’re completely ignorant of what you’re talking about: we DO have different ways of distributing THC into the body, you moog, and it doesn’t put it on par with cocaine.

What other ways but smoking does the generic stoner have?
Yes, you can put into cakes and etc. What else?

Oh, so alcohol IS the same as marijuana, but it’s NOT a drug? It’s a mind-altering substance, you know.

Mind-altering. Just like when I relax, after I take a sip of my coffee.
You know what I mean when I mean mind altering.
Alcohol is not the same. It alters the mind, however not in the same way that illicit drugs do.
If they were the same thing, one would not be illegal, while the other is legal.
And right after I say this, I'm sure this is going to get under the skin of people who think that the legality status of marijuana is tied to some conspiracy-it's not. It's illegal for good reasons.
The only reason why you think that it ought to be legal for sale is becuase you don't really care about it's outcomes. It's always about you, you want to have better access to cheaper and better quality drugs to get high. Anything else is not really a concern for you.
You trample underfoot society, order, family and etc.

Several “personals” make up a society. I don’t understand how personal legalization doesn’t link up with societal legalization. I can personally enjoy alcohol – so can the rest of society. Where on earth did you learn to lay out an argument?

Personal legalisation does not put a legal responsibility not to use the drug on the person who uses it. Meaning, the user is not punished for simply using the drug. The people who sell and produce it are the perpetrators, whereas the user is the victim.

No, actually, I want regulation from government agencies because despite cries from some of our other members, government regulation IS better than private regulation – therein lies the difference between public and personal gain. Don’t turn this into a government conspiracy now.

I guess this regulation you speak about is related to the quality and price tag of the drug. Well, it's all the same. The government helps to better poison his people.
Or were you talking about regulating drugs for individuals? Like you ought to have a license and a certain amount of marijuana you can use per month or week? I guess that beer is not the same as marijuana after all, for you do not need to be regulated by the state for the consumption of alcohol.

Right – legalize them.

For sale and production? No.

Who on earth have you been hanging around? My boyfriend has no problem having a steady stash on hand for whenever he feels like using it, and yet he takes the time to worry about not just himself and his girlfriend (granted, I make a great incentive) but his family AND an extended network of friends. Same with the last guy I dated. Same with a lot of my friends. If those people you’ve seen get caught up in themselves, my friend they are ridiculously selfish people PERIOD – the drug merely enhanced what was already there.

I believe that has more to do with your social standing than how well your friend controls himself. He controls himself due to his responsibiities to outside. People of higher social standings have higher social responsibilities. I think your friend doesn't use marijuana every day, or every weekend, or more than once every day. He can't afford to do so. Many others can afford that, when they cannot afford other things.

I know plenty of people also who gamble but don’t have a problem holding back. That’s a personal problem – not a “societal” problem. You can’t seem to decide whether you like government intervention or not.

It becomes a social problem when the number of constant gamblers begin to increase. But that doesn't happen due to the fact that today, most ways of gambling are regulated by the government as not to draw a lot people into it.

Advil and morphine are both pain relievers, but one is controlled and the other isn’t because of the strengths and effects. They’re still both drugs. When I’m ‘high’ on caffeine, I have decreased coordination, increased agitation and many other symptoms. When I’m on alcohol I have much worse symptoms that are actually dangerous. What we’re trying to say is that of the drugs still listed as illicit, marijuana is like the coffee portion – if there’s symptoms, they’re certainly not dangerous. As for public acceptance, this has nothing to do with its validity as a ‘dangerous’ substance or not – public opinion does not equate to science. In fact, public opinion is dangerously changeable.

I'm not really concerned with your symptoms. I still stand where I am. The danger of alcohol and marijuana are not so much related to their "negative" symptoms are you call them, but more so to their positive symptoms. This is why people who use marijuana regularly tend to diss alcohol in such ways. They see that marijuana is a lot superior to alcohol in many ways, and takes less to archive a similar or even greater effect, which is why they get drawn to it.
Their danger is not in whether they cause you to act in dangerous ways or not. It's in that they do not cause you to act in any ways.
Both drunk and stoned people are lazy people, but it looks like that while drunkards lament of their condition, stoners glorify it beyond comprehension.

What does that have to do with anything beyond a prejudice against poor people? Do you think people who can afford more drugs don’t do other drugs that cost more instead? Get a grip – Lindsey Lohan has enough money to make most of those people blush for shame at her bank account and she continues to fall back into rehab.

I think we have a communication problem here.
I'm was stating why the number of drug users were higher amongst the poor people. Most obviously do not do drugs that cost more, as most of those are also addictive physically, so they cannot get off it when they have to do so.
Those who earn little or nothing, but use drugs like cocaine and heroin usually get involved in crimes. That's about it.

Wrong, as I’ve already stated. I strongly expect, if it were legalized, that you would find it was pretty evenly distributed amongst the economic strata.

After legalisation, the drug will be easily accessible to people of any class. For now, drugs in general see regular use within lower classes.
It's the same for any country I've been to so far.

[The Grand Nudger]

Drugs see regular use amongst people of all socio-economic classes. Let me just add here, that the po'folks round these parts would love to be on the same narcotics and hallucinogens that the rich folks avail themselves of - they just can't afford it...lol. What is it that you think you're paying for in the prescription label? Legality.

[frankiej]

I'm sure mehmet might be surprised at how many rich people smoke weed and the amount who take harder drugs aswell...

[The Grand Nudger]

Only if he's never looked into it. Apparently he thinks that its the impoverished undesirables of the world consuming all that fucking cocaine....