Did we really land on the moon in '69?

[Eilonnwy]

Now it's hilarious to watch people try and defend their views. Most astounding thing someone has said to me: "There was absolutely no reason for the towers to come down!".

My response? "A f*cking plane flew straight through it..."

Nice.

As much as I am embarrassed by believing that stuff, it was a good lesson for me in becoming a skeptic and seeing how easily people can twist things to suit their story. It's why it's so important to never take claims at face value and not only look at the evidence for the claim, but who's saying it and why.

[Purple Rabbit]

The celebration of the famous moon landing 40 years ago is fast approaching.
I am old enough to remember it!
I remember sitting up all night, in front of a black and white tv, waiting and waiting for man to step on the moon. ( my parents were not that impressed and went to bed as normal ).
I waited, watched and that was it....I can't say much more.
40 years later though, I wonder.
As conspiracy theories go, I find the one about the moon landing pretty interesting.
My conclusion is a painful one...I'm on the famous fence!
I can equally accept it did or did not actually happen.
What say others?

Of course not. It was all too fuzzy for real, anyway. Next question.

[Pippy]

Eilonnwy: It is gullible to accept an alternate theory is so overwhelmingly crushed by valid and available evidence.

And Your self and Kyu are demonstrating this valid and available evidence? So far the only one who didn't just sit down and spew opinions (myself included) is Leo. He made a strong and valid point without any claim to opinion.

Would you make the same defensive statement about a holocaust denier?

Yes, I am a big fan of holocaust deniers. That is also an opinion I am not legally entitled to have. What is the difference between "holocaust denial" (which usually has less to do with full out denial, and more to do with reasonable logistics questions) and "freedom of speech"? Would I make that same statement about someone gullible enough not to notice what is a valid and available omnipotent being, I wonder? I mean the only thing we are both arguing about is that everybody just knows.

the overwhelming consensus is evolution. If you have a difference of "opinion" you're flat out wrong.

Oh well, get right in line behind the 'overwhelming consensus'. Everyone knows that as long as your opinion differs from what everybody knows than it must be wrong. That is a good way to live your life, you don't have to actually think for yourself. Just go with what appears to be the consensus, people in numbers have never been wrong before. And what about people like myself, that understand, respect and 'know' evolution, and believe creationism. Oh wait, allow me. We are just wrong. End of argument. Because <drumroll> 'everybody just knows'. End of argument. The way of thinking I have demonstrated here, is literally impossible for any human to hold, only because it differs from your own. End of argument. This reminds me of something.

Thank you.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

Yes, I am a big fan of holocaust deniers

For some reason,that doesn't surprise me in the least. I've had your number for some time.

Just something to consider.The Holocaust is one of the most thoroughly documented events in recorded history.Much of the documentation comes from Nazi records as well as from THOUSANDS of eye witness accounts given at the the Nuremberg Trials.


What is that you don't accept?

That there were 6 million victims? OK how many?

That the Nuremberg race laws of 1935 did NOT strip German Jews of their citizenship?

That there was no official Nazi policy called "The Final Solution" aimed at eliminating EVERY JEW IN EUROPE?

That NO ONE was killed because and only because he or she was a Jew?

That camps such; Auschwitz. Bergen-Belsen, Treblinka , Dacau, Maulthausen and Sorbibor did not exist? (let alone the other 15 THOUSAND CAMPS within German Territory)

That there weer no gas chambers and no ovens?

There were no SS death squads in Russia rounding up and shooting Jews (and Communist Commissars) in their thousands?

The Single atrocity of 30,00 murders at Babi Yar didn't happen?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babi_Yar_massacre

Those,and more ,are the things Holocaust deniers say simply did not happen or are "grossly exaggerated.
To quibble over numbers and logsitics is disingenuous or just plain stupid. It DOESN'T MATTER,in principle if the figure is 6 million,or one million or one hundred thousand. There was a deliberate state policy,which was put into action, to murder an entire people. THAT is genocide,whether or not it succeeded.

After a forty year interest in and study of the holocaust,in my opinion,at two generations remove,our perceptions of that time are if anything,grossly UNDER stated..




The arguments against on logistical and statistical grounds are arguments from ignorance, or in some cases deliberate misinformation. Perhaps have glance at the publications below.May help you make an informed opinion,which you seem unable to do at present.
(I've included links about the authors so you can decide how much,if any credibility you wish to give them; I accept their credentials)


" Hitler's Willing Executioners; Ordinary Germans And The Holocaust" (Daniel Johah Goldberg)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler%27s_..._Holocaust

"Hitler And The Holocaust; How and why The Holocaust Happened" (Robert S Wistrich)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_S._Wistrich

[Kyuuketsuki]

Or niggling gullibility?

no, now concentrate on what I write-- d o u b t.....doubt.

You're at least partially right ... thinking about it I think perhaps "gullibility" was too mild a term!

Oh and if you're after specific answers as you mention later in the same post try the links I supplied ... that's why I supplied them! Given that I did, given that you and others know I 'm not stupid (even if I am aggressive) and given that you are STILL expressing the same "doubts" I am genuinely beginning to wonder if "gullibility" comes anywhere close.

Kyu

---

Yes, I am a big fan of holocaust deniers.

A fan of holocaust deniers? Holocaust deniers are either morons or have an agenda ... if you are a holocaust denier which of those are you?

Kyu

[Pippy]

Padraic,

I made no statement about my opinions on the holocaust. I don't intend too. Thank you for the lesson anyways, we unfortunately had to lean about the holocaust every single year in school. Every year without fail, over and over and over. I feel like I have a basic handle on what it was, but again thank you any ways, I love wiki links as argument.

My informed opinion that you missed was that "holocaust denial" cannot be avoided without doing great damage to the concept of "free speech". No one took on that point, only my first sentence. And you both read it as my admittance of being a holocaust denier, something that it clearly was not. Tell me where we draw the line of what people are not allowed to say and think. I would like people not to think there is no god, not to say so. But I admit that that would be very, very unfair and dangerous and wrong. If you want to discuss this, actually discuss my point. The inability to remove supposed "hate crimes" and "human rights issues" (on the level of idea and communication, as opposed to murder or such aciton) form "free speech".

I do very much like holocaust deniers if only that I respect their use of the extremes of freedom. I also love 9/11 truthers, it's funny that a few of you admitted to being a truther and then not. Hard to decide? I have supported 9/11 truth movements since 2001, and never changed my stance, as it is an opinion formed on my very best logic. But alas, that is a very different topic.

It might be that the people that made me learn about "the" capital H holocaust every year had an agenda. There are plenty of more interesting history topics, especially after a few years of the same books over again. The Jewish people are not allowed to pretend to hold exclusivity on human suffering.

If you have had my number for some time, call it.
Thank you,
-Pip

[Tiberius]

http://wechoosethemoon.org - Cool website that is tracking the moon landing...40 years in the future

[Kyuuketsuki]

And you both read it as my admittance of being a holocaust denier, something that it clearly was not.

Actually I said, quite specifically, "if you are a holocaust denier which of those are you?" so no, I did not read it as you admitting anything but sought specific clarification on your stance.

Kyu

[bozo]

Or niggling gullibility?

no, now concentrate on what I write-- d o u b t.....doubt.

You're at least partially right ... thinking about it I think perhaps "gullibility" was too mild a term!

Oh and if you're after specific answers as you mention later in the same post try the links I supplied ... that's why I supplied them! Given that I did, given that you and others know I 'm not stupid (even if I am aggressive) and given that you are STILL expressing the same "doubts" I am genuinely beginning to wonder if "gullibility" comes anywhere close.

Kyu

---

Yes, I am a big fan of holocaust deniers.

A fan of holocaust deniers? Holocaust deniers are either morons or have an agenda ... if you are a holocaust denier which of those are you?

Kyu

Kyu,to " gullible" and " humourless " you can add " lazy " if you want, cause I ain't about to plough through those links you provided. Seeing as how you know all the answers about everything, please try to remove some of my doubts by simply providing answers. Thank you kindly.

[Kyuuketsuki]

Kyu,to " gullible" and " humourless " you can add " lazy " if you want, cause I ain't about to plough through those links you provided. Seeing as how you know all the answers about everything, please try to remove some of my doubts by simply providing answers. Thank you kindly.

Bozo,

Negative though my opinion of you may be you are not the enemy so, if you wish to be lazy, ill-informed, ignorant and to look foolish in the face of those who choose not to be then that is your prerogative ... you want to look like a Muppet then enjoy your life.

Kyu