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"Faith" is not a virtue.
#1
"Faith" is not a virtue.
"Faith" is not a virtue.

Everyso often I see or hear the word "faith" and far too often by humans in our species history and of course today, it gets unduely treated as a "virtue". And constantly despite this "virtue" it constantly gets rightfully shot down by those who dare to question. It is why we no longer believe the sun to rotate around the earth. It is why we no longer own slaves or prevent, at least in the west, women from voting.

Faith is not a virtue, it is a cop out, nothing more than intellectual cowardice. It amounts to nothing more than if you want to believe something badly enough, you will, even in the face of contrary facts. It is an attitude in human history that constantly pits desire and tribal mentality against the nature of our common condition in reality.

The world cannot afford more "faith". Now before the fearmongers go falsely claiming that force via government should be used to end all religion, that would be as absurd a goal as any one religion wanting to take over the world.

No, the only valid tactic the rationalist can use is that of debate, appeal, and blasphemy via challenging of any and all claims. The promotion of the idea that claims cannot nor should be given hands off status, even if we value the human right to make any claim one wants.

"Faith" is the unwillingness to consider one may be wrong. It is a childlike mentality rooted in the ego's insecurity and narcissism. It must be challenged constantly for the mere nessecity that the roadblocks to discovery of facts can be torn down to make progress.

In doing such it does not make us machines or godless facists out to control the world. It is merely the viggilance to question that keeps the door open. "Faith" is the refusal to leave the mental caves of Plato and to be satisfied with not knowing that the flames on the cave wall are merely just that.

"Faith" allows the believer to take mundane nature and turn it into a comic book battle between Superman vs Lex Luthor. It deserves no value other than the ability to question it. It is a pragmatic matter of strictly the quality control of testing. It is not a human rights issue from a government standpoint. Just the idea that if someone claims something, sure they can, but the ability to question is the real virtue that has lead humans away from many needless self inflicted delusions that we collectivelly no longer buy into.

We say it many ways as atheists as a challenge to believers. Think about why you reject all other claims. The reason is simple. You reject all other claims because they don't make sense to you. The only difference between the atheist and theist is that we simply reject one more god claim than you do. "Faith" is the insiduous excuse that allows you to avoid looking in the mirror.

When you make an argument for your particular pet god claim, ask yourself this. Would you buy your own argument if someone with a different pet god claim were using that same argument?If not, then it should be painfully obvious that your argument is not a universal tool, but self serving and circular.

"Faith" is not a virtue, it is an excuse to avoid examining one's own claims. It is a superflous placebo gap that acts like nothing more than the sugar pill of wishful thinking. Evolution has and will to some degree always produce irrational claims and people will continue to center their lives around these gap answers. But to insure the stability of progress in the future, it must be keept on a leash, even if it never goes away.

"Faith" deserves no taboo status, be it faith in a nation, or faith in a political party, but especially not a god. Our nature in evolution will always produce flocking to like minded people. But we must always remain vigilant to maintain the ability to question without fear.

The history of skepticism from Epicurus to Jefferson to Ingersol to Hitchens and Dawkins are the leash on credulity and irrationality. "Faith" must always be subject to scrutiny to avoid the facism of blind loyalty, just like that of Iran's Allah based "faith". And even that of the "faith" that one man and one political party would lead Germany to new days of glory.

"Faith" is not a fronteer, it is a hindrence. It must never be given the selfish reprieve of taboo status. If our species never questioned social norms our species never would have left the caves. "Faith" is the child refusing to leave the cave. It is the child finding comfort in factless fantasy. Just as factless and baseless as when the Egyptians prayed to the sun falsely believing it was a thinking deity. If one can accept their "faith" was unfounded, and one can accept that we continued on without that "faith", then no one should fear their "faith" being challenged today. Qustioning is how our species progresses, and is the only real tool that has allowed us to move into the future.

In conclusion, "faith" must not ever be left without question. Humans will carry their memes and most will not give up on them, but they MUST always at a minimum, be kept in check by the nessesity of question.
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#2
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
Quote:Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.


-- Thomas Jefferson
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#3
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
(September 27, 2012 at 11:03 am)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Shake off all fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear.


-- Thomas Jefferson

Go find the entire letter, he goes on to say that if one comes to the conclusion that a god does not exist, that is ok too.

It really astounds me that from the day the ink dried on the Constitution, that after the founders risked their lives setting up "no religious test" and the first Amendment, that every effort has been taken to bury especially the skepticism of Jefferson.

If he ran for office today, neither party would nominate him nor would most of the public vote for him.

He also said in one of his letters something to the affect "whence comes the morality of the atheist? It is idol to say that no such thing exists".

Now when I quote Jefferson I neve let the theist make false claims that I am lying claiming he was an atheist. No, when we quote him we must always make the effort to point out that he was a deist, not an atheist. But the important thing about him was that he valued questioning over fear of being wrong.
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#4
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
People are wrong all the time, correcting those mistakes is the only way to advance society. When a hypothesis in science turns out to be incorrect, this does not mean that science is wrong, but in fact that it is now right.
Thomas Edison Wrote:I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
But, more importantly:
Thomas Edison Wrote:Five percent of the people think;
ten percent of the people think they think;
and the other eighty-five percent would rather die than think.
I think that about sums up why people rely on blind faith so much. It annoys me when theists accuse atheists of having 'faith' in science, and that being the same. Science is rigorously tested and peer reviewed, religion is most certainly not.
John Adams Wrote:The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.
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#5
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
I think Jefferson would be one of us, today. He died in 1826, long before science really got going. Deists were ahead of their time in the 18th century.


Anyway, I believe this is the quote you mean.

Quote:If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. I have observed, indeed, generally, that while in Protestant countries the defections from the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in Catholic countries they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God.
-- Thomas Jefferson
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#6
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
(September 27, 2012 at 3:43 pm)Minimalist Wrote: I think Jefferson would be one of us, today. He died in 1826, long before science really got going. Deists were ahead of their time in the 18th century.


Anyway, I believe this is the quote you mean.

Quote:If we did a good act merely from the love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? It is idle to say, as some do, that no such thing exists. We have the same evidence of the fact as of most of those we act on, to wit: their own affirmations, and their reasonings in support of them. I have observed, indeed, generally, that while in Protestant countries the defections from the Platonic Christianity of the priests is to Deism, in Catholic countries they are to Atheism. Diderot, D'Alembert, D'Holbach, Condorcet, are known to have been among the most virtuous of men. Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than love of God.
-- Thomas Jefferson

That is the one. And Obama took a huge risk during his campain repeting that segmant of is inogural speech that is in my sig. It is refresshing for a politican to say that others exist and our common law is what allows us our differences and individuality.

The right wing likes to claim freedom, but what they really want is freedom to set up a religious pecking order where non Christian citizens at best, are mere guests, even in their own house.
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#7
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
True.


BTW, a similar thought from George Washington.

Quote:If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists.
-- George Washington
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#8
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
(September 27, 2012 at 4:54 pm)Minimalist Wrote: True.


BTW, a similar thought from George Washington.

Quote:If they are good workmen, they may be of Asia, Africa, or Europe. They may be Mohometans, Jews or Christians of any Sect, or they may be Atheists.
-- George Washington

That was a letter to a contractor who asked them what belief the worker should be to build MT Veron and Washington basically said "Who gives a shit as long as they do a good job".

You can even all sorts of quotes from even the most adherant believers of the founders, that clearly shows their belief that beliefs were personal and not a matter for government cheerleading.

I have no doubt the founders would be thrilled to see Caltholics and Baptists and Jews and Muslims and even an atheist serving in our Congress.

It is a pitty that their is far to much ignorance even on the left as to what it ment to the founders to be a citizen. Basically to them your beliefs were not as important to politics as your actions and performance.

The intend of "no religious test" in the oath of office did not ban a religious person from running for office. They merely said it is not a requirement and when you apply to run it cannot be considered for exclusion or inclusion.

Most people think "So Help Me God" is required and the words ARE NOT in the oath of office and are NOT manditory. You can swear to any god or not swear to a god at all when you take that oath.
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#9
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
Xtians would have one believe that our forefathers were christian and we all know that to be false and some atheists have argued that our forefathers were atheists.

Most of our forefathers were deists without any attachment to any religion. It was religion they were opposed to and not the belief or disbelief in a deity.

Thomas Paine seems to be atheist in most of his writings, but there are a few that suggest some agnostosism at least, if not a tendency toward a belief in a deity. Most of the rest seem pretty much 'Yeah, there's a god". They did not let their god lead them. They had 'faith' in themselves to build a new government.

Being fresh from the inquisition where 'FAITH' destroyed the lives of thousands if not millions, even their own. our forefathers wanted a 'solid foundation' built on logic and earthly values for their new government. (and "their" was not a typo or 'slip')
You make people miserable and there's nothing they can do about it, just like god.
-- Homer Simpson

God has no place within these walls, just as facts have no place within organized religion.
-- Superintendent Chalmers

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends. There are some things we don't want to know. Important things.
-- Ned Flanders

Once something's been approved by the government, it's no longer immoral.
-- The Rev Lovejoy
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#10
RE: "Faith" is not a virtue.
(September 27, 2012 at 7:44 pm)IATIA Wrote: Xtians would have one believe that our forefathers were christian and we all know that to be false and some atheists have argued that our forefathers were atheists.

Most of our forefathers were deists without any attachment to any religion. It was religion they were opposed to and not the belief or disbelief in a deity.

Thomas Paine seems to be atheist in most of his writings, but there are a few that suggest some agnostosism at least, if not a tendency toward a belief in a deity. Most of the rest seem pretty much 'Yeah, there's a god". They did not let their god lead them. They had 'faith' in themselves to build a new government.

Being fresh from the inquisition where 'FAITH' destroyed the lives of thousands if not millions, even their own. our forefathers wanted a 'solid foundation' built on logic and earthly values for their new government. (and "their" was not a typo or 'slip')
None of the founders were atheists. But they were everything from freemasons to unitarians to deists and the garden variety Christians.

But Jefferson and Paine and Washington most certainly it could be argued that they wouldn't give a shit what god you believed in, but all of the founders most certainly advocated a ban on assendency and pecking orders when it came to public office in regards to religon "No religious test".
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