Do you control what you believe?

[festive1]

Everything? Could it? Should it? Does it? I'm not so sure.

Okay, the conscious mind controls much of the rest. The brain controls almost everything, it is just that the brain is also responsible for involuntary things like triggering hormonal releases and reflexes, etc. So there are some things the conscious mind doesn't control.

Ah, but one can train their mind to override these natural responses... Just look at training for special military forces, or behavioral therapy to treat anxiety.

[Darkstar]

Ah, but one can train their mind to override these natural responses... Just look at training for special military forces, or behavioral therapy to treat anxiety.

Many of them, yes. But can you get your body to release certain hormones on command, or stop your reflexes? Anything that is voluntaary can be controlled by the conscious mind. I am only referring to the involuntary.

[jonb]

I don't think you are right, a heard on the radio a while ago on one of the science programmes on BBC radio 4 that some research was now showing that the conscious mind seemingly is not making decisions, but seems to be just justifying the decisions of the unconscious mind. I haven't found links, but somebody might.

[Something completely different]

Many of them, yes. But can you get your body to release certain hormones on command, or stop your reflexes?

One could castrate himself, go into brutal 1950s style hormon pheraphy (like it was forced onto Alan Turing), remove certain parts of your brain, or cause massive damage to the receptors on your braincells through a heroin addiction - which (as usual with opiat addictions) will cause a incapablillity to feel joy, or just gain a massive case of mercury poisoning which will damage your brain so subsequently that you are no longer capable to learn, at a young age - eaven basic stuff (like keeping your hand from the stove because it hurts). If you like radical solutions.

Anything that is voluntaary can be controlled by the conscious mind. I am only referring to the involuntary.

if with involuntary you mean for example: the urge to eat in order not to starve, the urge to go to the toilet in order not to shit yourself, the urge to keep your hand out of the woodshredder because it hurts. I guess yes, you can train yourself to ignore those urges, or eaven loose these through serious illneses like mercury poisoning or altzheimers or just being a hopeless masochist - but whats the point when your not a hopeless masochist?

I don't think you are right, a heard on the radio a while ago on one of the science programmes on BBC radio 4 that some research was now showing that the conscious mind seemingly is not making decisions, but seems to be just justifying the decisions of the unconscious mind. I haven't found links, but somebody might.

the concious mind is doing nothing more than justifying the decisions of the unconcious mind?

"Yeah I know it`s your girlfriend - but my subconciousnes is telling me that it`s alright."

I think it depends quite on the personality of the subject, the more selfcontrol and awareness the subject has over his or her subconciousnes
,the more controled his or her actions will be. And I believe in most cases, most people use their conciousnes to justify why they dont do what their subconciousnes tells them to do.
The question of what is conciousnes also must be asked, state of mental or physical health, education, sociatal norms, "the chance to get away with something" actualy the general conditions of the situation in which a individual finds himself are factors which contribute into a individuals process of decisionmaking.
On the subject of how big the surroundings have an influence on a individuals decisionmaking, some people would go so far as to state that due to these influences and thought-processes "free will" doesn`t exist.
like german neurologist professor Wolf Singer:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf_Singer

or biologist Gerhar Roth:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerhard_Roth_(Biologe)

I wouldn`t go so far but still am convinced that the conciousnes has the supirior hand over the subconciousnes, when it comes to decisionmaking.
And that it can be trained to gain a extreme amount of control over ones subconciousnes. Ever heard of "Lucid dream"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucid_dream

now reaching such a state of control over ones subconciousnes wouldn`t be possible if the subconciousnes had more influence on your personality than your conciousnes.

[Darkstar]

Anything that is voluntaary can be controlled by the conscious mind. I am only referring to the involuntary.

if with involuntary you mean for example: the urge to eat in order not to starve, the urge to go to the toilet in order not to shit yourself, the urge to keep your hand out of the woodshredder because it hurts. I guess yes, you can train yourself to ignore those urges, or eaven loose these through serious illneses like mercury poisoning or altzheimers or just being a hopeless masochist - but whats the point when your not a hopeless masochist?

Yes, you can resist those urges, but that does not stop you from feeling them. Can you directly control your heartbeat? No, because it is involuntary. I had originally meant involuntary as in things like heartbeat, but I suppose biological urges could be classified as involuntary as well.

[Something completely different]

why would one want to control his or her heartbeat? You do know what consequences a "not beating" heart has on you?
I dont know if it`s possible, maybe, maybe it`s hard to find a willing subject for that kind of experiment?
But since sword swallowers are capable of controling their gag reflex, and didgeridoo players are capable of controling the flow of air through their lungs.
I wouldnt be suprised if the list of organs which one can train to control or disrupt their usual process is long.

[Whateverist]

Ah, but one can train their mind to override these natural responses... Just look at training for special military forces, or behavioral therapy to treat anxiety.

Many of them, yes. But can you get your body to release certain hormones on command, or stop your reflexes? Anything that is voluntaary can be controlled by the conscious mind. I am only referring to the involuntary.

Not addressed to me but I'm not one to stand on ceremony.

That addresses the "could it" question. Let's say you're right. If it is possible, then "should we" try? Do we always know what's best consciously? There is a lot of anecdotal evidence of people resolving problems in their dreams, such as the discovery of the double helix structure of DNA. I think important decisions demand focused, conscious effort. But when it comes to the sheer number of presuppositions and decisions necessary to to perform complex tasks, it is questionable whether you really want to try and make all of these consciously.

A happy working relationship between the conscious mind and the subconscious pays big dividends functionally. Take forgetting. What to forget happens below the threshold of consciousness, but would we really want to decide consciously what to keep and what to get rid of? Can you imagine if you had to do that deliberately the way you manage your computer's memory? You'd be very busy. If such functions didn't happen subliminally we would have no time for life's big decisions.

Even if we could take total control of our brain's many functions, it is questionable whether that would be a life worth living or whether you could actually perform as well within the limits of the conscious mind as you're able to from the totality of your mind.

[Darkstar]

Even if we could take total control of our brain's many functions, it is questionable whether that would be a life worth living or whether you could actually perform as well within the limits of the conscious mind as you're able to from the totality of your mind.

I never argued it would be a good thing, and those were rhetorical questions illustrating the involuntary. Actually, the whim is really based on emotion, and a small amount of it is applied to answer questions without absolutely concrete answers.
Man with literally no emotions has severely impaired descision making abilities as a result.

[Whateverist]

Even if we could take total control of our brain's many functions, it is questionable whether that would be a life worth living or whether you could actually perform as well within the limits of the conscious mind as you're able to from the totality of your mind.

I never argued it would be a good thing, and those were rhetorical questions illustrating the involuntary. Actually, the whim is really based on emotion, and a small amount of it is applied to answer questions without absolutely concrete answers.
Man with literally no emotions has severely impaired descision making abilities as a result.

Very aporpos! This is exactly my thought regarding free will. Separating emotion from will seems of questionable utility or value.

There was this man –Elliot- who was a perfect husband, father and manager who’s personality changed radically after removing a tumor in his brain. After surgery he lost his ability to make decisions. A neurologist Antonio Damasio studied that man and he found out that Elliot had no emotions. He showed him different pictures which normally trigger emotions (e.g. a naked woman, a house on fire etc) and measured changes in his palms’ sweat output. That’s sort of like a lying detector. The test showed absolutely no change in Elliot’s perspiration no matter what photograph was shown to him. Therefore Elliot had no emotions.

The sad thing is that Elliot lost his ability to make decisions. He was “rational” about every little aspect of life – always weighing the pros and cons of every alternative but he was never able to decide what to do. He couldn’t decide which shoe to put on first or where to park his car etc. He had a lot of problems. Elliot lost his wife, his job and friends. The neurologist concluded that humans need emotions to make decisions. We can’t function properly without emotions.

[IATIA]

Genetics?