Human Value Nonexistent?

[kılıç_mehmet]

If we were a very small tribe of people, probably. But our numbers now reach over 200 millions of Turks worldwide, and it is our purpose to unite them all under a single banner and sublime purpose.
Ending world hunger is not really my problem to solve. I didn't create world hunger.

What is up with Turkish people? The 3 I've met online have all been card carrying nationalists who seem to think their "people" are somehow better than other people. And also like a separate race. Turkish is not a race of people.
Is there a lot of propaganda over there, like North Korea or something?

You're out of your element, with no knowledge of what I've told these people over the couse of months.
Replying to you means to destroy this thread, I'm not going to do it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh, don't judge turkish people by Mehmets example. I don't think that 3 people you meet online would be enough to judge any group of folks.

As a person, btw (because I'm curious) what leads you to believe that I'm feeble (other than the obvious, my mixed blood...lol)? What is "feeble" supposed to mean anyway?

[kılıç_mehmet]

Oh, don't judge turkish people by Mehmets example. I don't think that 3 people you meet online would be enough to judge any group of folks.

As a person, btw (because I'm curious) what leads you to believe that I'm feeble (other than the obvious, my mixed blood...lol)? What is "feeble" supposed to mean anyway?

He can judge us the way he wants to. I wish that all Turks did fit his description, but sadly they do not.
Some are leftists, some are islamists, and some are nationalists.
Some are apolitical people with no real worldview or any idea of what goes on around the world.

Obviously, you're not feeble due to your mongrel blood, friend.
Neither am I less feeble due to my pure blood.
A single person as a person is always feeble. Einstein as the "person" of Einstein, too, is feeble. Einstein as the man who has pioneered quantum physics is not.

[Aroura]

What is up with Turkish people? The 3 I've met online have all been card carrying nationalists who seem to think their "people" are somehow better than other people. And also like a separate race. Turkish is not a race of people.
Is there a lot of propaganda over there, like North Korea or something?

You're out of your element, with no knowledge of what I've told these people over the couse of months.
Replying to you means to destroy this thread, I'm not going to do it.

But you just did reply to me. Goo thing it didn't destroy the thread.

Of course you have a point that I don't know you. But it doesn't take months to judge you as a nationalist (not saying it's good or bad, just saying you are).

Anyway, you do seem to be proud of what I said of you, and said you wished all Turks where what I said, so why act all offended?

Oh, don't judge Turkish people by Mehmets example. I don't think that 3 people you meet online would be enough to judge any group of folks.

Good point. I shouldn't, I just thought it was an odd experience.

The funny thing is though, he's right insofar as that our most basic value, or meaning, is to propagate our DNA, just as all other living organisms do. Not in any "Pure" way (that's his ideology mixed into it), but in a positive way.

Of course, as humans we have the ability to derive MUCH more from life than this most basic Freudian concept. We can give ourselves whatever value we wish (charity, family, just enjoying life, etc), it isn't limited to our animal instincts, sex, or reproduction at all. Many, many people without children have extremely valuable and meaningful lives.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh, so then you are also feeble (by your definition), this in addition to being an ethnic supremicist? Well, now I take issue, because I don't want to be too closely associated with anything that you are.

@Arou, Our drive to preserve our DNA is very much a heterogenous process. At the very base visible level we seek out those fundamentally different from ourselves male/female. Operating even lower than this is heterosis, or "hybrid vigor" rewarding those who breed the furthest afield over those who fuck their sister (looking at you pure-blood types). I wouldn't even give Mehm the "right insofar" nod, because the mention of DNA is only pretext for his personal ideology.

[kılıç_mehmet]

Oh, so then you are also feeble (by your definition), this in addition to being an ethnic supremicist? Well, now I take issue, because I don't want to be too closely associated with anything that you are.

Well, as a person of me, I too am feeble. I have no real problems admitting this, as I have demonstrated this to myself on various occasions.
As a Turk, on the other hand, and as a person who has ideals, and a will to realize them, I believe that I do hold power. I do hold the power to do something that is beyond "me".

[genkaus]

Where would value come from?

From your consciousness.

To think that you're life is more valuable than an ant would just to be guilty of speciesism.

Really? You think there is no other difference between you and an ant other than your species?

If there is no objective being to give your life value, then it has no objective value. Any value that you would perceive your life to have would be just an self-deception.

No, it would be subjective value. There is a difference. Just because something is subjective doesn't make it false.

Moreover, the OP quoted Dawkins saying that there exists no good, no evil.

AND ALL OF YOU AGREE WITH THIS?!?!?!?!?!

No, I say there is no external standard for existence of good or evil. All such standards originate form humans.

(the following is from wikipedia on the topic of Nazi Experiments)

Bone, muscle, and nerve transplantation experiments

From about September 1942 to about December 1943 experiments were conducted at the Ravensbrück concentration camp, for the benefit of the German Armed Forces, to study bone, muscle, and nerve regeneration, and bone transplantation from one person to another. Sections of bones, muscles, and nerves were removed from the subjects without use of anesthesia. As a result of these operations, many victims suffered intense agony, mutilation, and permanent disability.

Head injury experiments

In mid-1942 in Baranowicze, occupied Poland, experiments were conducted in a small building behind the private home occupied by Nazi SD Security Service officer, in which "a young boy of eleven or twelve [was] strapped to a chair so he could not move. Above him was a mechanized hammer that every few seconds came down upon his head." The boy was driven insane from the torture.
~~~~~

I also read where pregnant women were used for vivisections.

On atheism, you have no grounds to say that this is wrong.

Yes we do.

Life simply is....you can do what you wish with it.

Your own - not someone else's.

There's nothing wrong with using other humans for science experiments against their will and at the cost of their lives.

Yes, there is. Because it is against their will and costs their lives.

If there is no God, life came from nothing and ends in nothing. Not only do our individual lives end in death, the universe itself will end in a heat death and will go back to being what it was in the beginning...nothing.

All the more reason why what we have now matters so much.

Nothing before the Big Bang, nothing afterwards....we're just this drivel in between nothings. Meaningless, purposeless, valueless.

Not to ourselves.

If there is no God what value could your life possible have?

The value I assign to it.

Perhaps you could benefit the human race? To what end? All ends in nothingness, it would be a fruitless, pointless endeavor anyway. All acts of humanity are ultimately of no consequence.

But they are of consequence right now.

A life lived for pure selfish gain would be equal to a life lived selflessly giving to the human race. Both would end in death.

But the life itself would be different. And that makes all the difference.

Sacrifice is foolish and selfishness is the only logical perspective to approach life with.

I agree.

If there is no God, all things are permissible....our world essentially is Auschwitz.

Nope. Because in Auschwitz, life is not permissible.

If God exists, then you have value because he ascribes value to you.

And why should the value he ascribes mean anything to me?

If God exists then you would have objective value because the objective being gave it to you.

Nope. The value, being dependent on god, would still be subjective.

Your argument seems to be addressing extrinsic value, like sand...if there's a ton it's not really valuable.

It is because there is a ton of it that it is not really valuable.

However, if God exists we have intrinsic value because we are made in His image and those who Jesus died for would have extrinsic value as well because their life would have been purchased by the blood of Jesus, who is Himself God.

If that were the case, we still wouldn't have any value - intrinsic or extrinsic.

God would...and those that wanted to spend eternity with Him would.

You are contradicting yourself. If this life is transient and there is no afterlife, then what happens here doesn't matter. If it is transient but there is an afterlife, then for some reason, it does matter? Either it matters on its own merit or it doesn't - make up your mind.

(I added emphasis)
One shot for what? If atheism is true whatever you do with this life is purposeless.

Nonsense. There is just no externally assigned purpose. Your life can be as purposeful as the purpose you assign to it.

One shot for success? To make a difference?

One shot at living as you like.

If atheism is true, there is no difference to be made and success is no more meaningful than a life spent sitting on the couch.

For you, maybe. For me, getting off my ass and achieving something makes all the difference.

To think otherwise would be to simply deceive yourself with a noble lie.

Atleast a noble lie would be better than the pathetic one you tell yourself everyday.

---

I'm not suspicious of anything nor anyone. Instead, I propagate trust.
I do the same for international community. It's not us who breed suspicion. Those of the opposing ideologies do.

Its ironic that a person who's ideological aim is to rule over others is talking about propagating trust.

[jonb]

I believe that I do hold power. I do hold the power to do something that is beyond "me".

I am glad to see you are not loosing touch with reality my little he man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZcmMK64Ok

[Angrboda]

Jesus bloody Christ, I go in the hospital four days and things go to hell in a handbasket.

Trying to "guess" how we got from Jeff's sputtering incredulity concern Nazi medical experiments to mehmet is no doubt a twisted trip.

I'm not going to go too deep tonight, but the people who object to moral relativism have some explaining to do. Namely, how do morals that are independent of us get inside us? Are we swimming in a moral field like the luminiferous ether? And if so, how do we know the ether isn't tuned for the brain of australopethicine rather than homo sapiens. It would seem to matter if the moral code is transmitted through matter or energy, what the design of "the receiver of that moral code." Perhaps the hominids which fit this intangible ether are extinct, and we're proceeding faultily based on inherited legends from that hominid it was designed for.

If you're not postulating a property of matter and energy, you are putting forth a dualism, which makes your problems worse, not better.

I'd like someone who believes in truly objective morality to show a plausible mechanism. Otherwise, it's a waste of my time.

And regards the Mengelian scenarios, this is fundamentally an argument from consequences, that the result of holding to X results in Y, and Y is bad. Even if the premises are true, the conclusion (X is wrong) is not justified. Moreover, people who draw up these Mengelian scenarios overlook an important point. We're interested in how something works in the long run -- the average performance of the species -- not isolated subpopulations. While there are certainly going to be Hitlers and Pol Pots, this is to be expected of a process like evolution. Some experiments will be failed experiments, but on the whole, letting humans figure it out for themselves has resulted in a lot of meaningful and meaningfully free of suffering lives having been lived.

[pocaracas]

I'd like someone who believes in truly objective morality to show a plausible mechanism. Otherwise, it's a waste of my time.

Not that I believe it, but they could argue that it's embedded in our genetic code, somehow.
hehe
And people with this part of the code damaged turn out to be atheists or just psychopaths.

Now, the difficult part to explain is how would someone go from complete adherent of this morality to a non-adherent, just by having a piece of brain removed (and this has happened before).