Proof that God doesn't exist

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure, if we all deserved it, whats the alternative?

[Edwardo Piet]

You still haven't disproved that Jesus is God incarnate and that God created the universe. What Jesus is saving us from could mean anything if it's all allegory.

The fact that Paul, who was in contact with Christ Jesus, tells us that Adam was literal, either shows that Paul was making up stuff (because our assumption here is that Genesis is allegorical) OR that Jesus himself was telling him Adam was literal, which means that Jesus was wrong i.e. he wasn't divine in that case.

If it's allegorical then the concept of "divine" might be completely different too. Maybe a divine God can lie? Maybe a divine God can be wrong? Maybe omnipotence and omniscience are allegorical too. Like I said, maybe everything is allegorical apart from the fact that Jesus is God incarnate and God created the universe.

Then we also get Jesus himself making an implicit reference to creation and how the first humans were Adam & Eve.

Could be allegory. You haven't disproved that.

Given that in this thread we have granted the bulk of the Christian god's claims but modified it to say Genesis is allegorical, I'd say that these couple of things show Jesus wasn't god.

I'm not suggesting that only Genesis might be allegory. I'm saying that it is logically possible that everything in the Bible is allegory except the fact that God created the universe and Jesus is God incarnate. And so, Jesus could also be God incarnate but everything else about Jesus was allegory, maybe even the miracles. Maybe he just has God's mind and he is God in human form, but he can't do anything that God can do?

It's all logically possible, therefore you haven't disproved it.

Saying "God works in mysterious ways" makes the Christian sound like a Pantheist. The Christian claims to have a relationship with the Almighty Creator of the Cosmos whereas the Pantheist doesn't, but yet the Christian has to shrug and cop out with the "mysterious ways" line. I find that incredibly laughable really. So laughable in fact that the hilarity can be portrayed through memes.

Yes, it's laughable but once again my point remains: Your own incredulity isn't disproof. If we can conceive of a logically possible God that created the universe and a logically possible Jesus as that God incarnate then it isn't disproved.

Are you attempting to disprove every conceivable form of Christianity believable by an individual or just certain forms? I reckon that you can do the latter but not the former.

Arguably, both these examples also show he wasn't divine.

Not if divinity is allegory.

[FallentoReason]

I'm not suggesting that only Genesis might be allegory. I'm saying that it is logically possible that everything in the Bible is allegory except the fact that God created the universe and Jesus is God incarnate. And so, Jesus could also be God incarnate but everything else about Jesus was allegory, maybe even the miracles. Maybe he just has God's mind and he is God in human form, but he can't do anything that God can do?

If the entire Bible is allegory then how can we determine there was even an historical Jesus? There would be no way of telling what is real about Jesus because he's obviously so intertwined with everything else that's allegorical in the NT.

Are you attempting to disprove every conceivable form of Christianity believable by an individual or just certain forms? I reckon that you can do the latter but not the former.

I was trying to disprove it as a whole, but it seems like everytime you turn up the "allegory knob" and change the allegory content closer to 100% to discredit my argument (which by the way is called moving the goal posts) then technically I had only disproved the breed of Christianity that allowed x% of allegory. Except you can only avoid the arguments via allegory-incrementation for so long before you yourself start producing impossible scenarios that show Christianity is not the truth:

Not if divinity is allegory.

How can Jesus literally be God incarnate but allegorically hold this divinity?

[Edwardo Piet]

If the entire Bible is allegory then how can we determine there was even an historical Jesus?

I'm not saying we can. But that doesn't mean there wasn't one. Absence of evidence for the existence of something is not proof of non-existence. You still haven't disproved it. Are you simply trying to make a convincing argument or actually trying to disprove Christianity? Because the OP seems to suggest that you think you are disproving Christianity.

I believe that some forms of Christianity may be able to be disproved, but not all, and that is what I am trying to demonstrate.

There would be no way of telling what is real about Jesus because he's obviously so intertwined with everything else that's allegorical in the NT.

Irrelevant. You are giving good reasons to believe that it's all nonsense, you're not disproving it.

I was trying to disprove it as a whole, but it seems like everytime you turn up the "allegory knob" and change the allegory content closer to 100% to discredit my argument (which by the way is called moving the goal posts) then technically I had only disproved the breed of Christianity that allowed x% of allegory.

Yes, moving the goal posts is exactly what I am doing. And yes, it is ridiculous, and yes, you give convincing reasons for why the Bible is all nonsense. But I am simply moving the goal posts deliberately despite the fact that I know it's ridiculous in order to show that whether it's ridiculous or not you still can't disprove it.

Except you can only avoid the arguments via allegory-incrementation for so long before you yourself start producing impossible scenarios that show Christianity is not the truth:

Some interpretations of Christianity can be disproved IMO. Not all, that's what I am trying to demonstrate.

How can Jesus literally be God incarnate but allegorically hold this divinity?

Because if divinity is allegorical then God isn't necessarily "divine" in a sense that we use the word. He could be powerful enough to create the universe but not omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent or divine. "Omniscience", "omnipotence", "omnipresence" and "divinity" could all be allegory. So Jesus being God incarnate could just mean that the God who created the universe embodied himself in the man called "Jesus Christ".

[Reasonable_Jeff]

Sure, if we all deserved it, whats the alternative?

The alternative is what God has done through Jesus Christ.

Are you familiar with the story of Barabbas?

Barabbas, a convicted murderer and rebel against the Roman government is set free and Jesus pays the price. Rebels against Rome were often crucified to make an example of, Barabbas goes free even though he's guilty, and Jesus takes the penalty.

(you can read about this in Mark 15)

That's the alternative....God shows not only his justice but His mercy as well.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm not interested in that kind of "mercy" Jeff. It's disgusting, and in no way related to mercy or justice. Meh, who knows, maybe it's a glitch, but my drive for self preservation doesn't get tweaked by this kind of thing so there isn't any leverage to be had here.
(Any judge who made such a call would quickly be relieved of his position in our system, don't you think? I think I prefer our system.)

[ThomM]

we can say for sure is that it did not happen there.[/quote]

Forget the words God willed for a second. You've forgotten that his first will (the universe) is returning an explanation that we now call evolution. Assuming we're not being deceived, this dictates that God's words are allegorical.


Sorry - but until YOU can prove the existence of a god - to have willed anything - the words of the bible were written by HUMANS - and they are simply an example of ancient myth and legends of the people of the time.

TO claim that the bible is allegory - then calls every word in the bible into question - is the story of the christ an allegory - since there is NO mention of him in the historical record of his supposed time?

Once you have called into question any part of the bible - then the rest must be proven with sources from outside the bible - since the bible CANNOT be claimed to be the inerrant word of a god if you agree it is an allegory

AND - it is indeed possible to look at the bible - and provide a list of claims about the GODS (THere are many more than just the three xtian ones) in the bible - and know that they cannot ALL be true for the same being.

[Darkstar]

The alternative is what God has done through Jesus Christ.

Are you familiar with the story of Barabbas?

Barabbas, a convicted murderer and rebel against the Roman government is set free and Jesus pays the price. Rebels against Rome were often crucified to make an example of, Barabbas goes free even though he's guilty, and Jesus takes the penalty.

(you can read about this in Mark 15)

That's the alternative....God shows not only his justice but His mercy as well.

Really? I don't think you could have shown a worse example of his mercy. God has a really bad track record with those who are 'rebels'. Didn't he have just about every 'rebellious' population killed off in the OT?

[Something completely different]

That's the alternative....God shows not only his justice but His mercy as well.

So I can murder my way right trough my town and get set free because someone makes a sacrifice so I can be free?


That`s not mercy, it`s inmoral bullshit.

[Darkstar]

So I can murder my way right trough my town and get set free because someone makes a sacrifice so I can be free?


That`s not mercy, it`s inmoral bullshit.

Jesus say to love you enemy, etc.

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Matthew 5:44-45

But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

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Isn't that a bit too forgiving? Maybe you really can get away with murder (so long as the victim isn't a straight True Christian™)