Give all your money to the poor, and follow me.

[ronedee]

Who but jesus? You have to be kidding. The author of the narrative....that's who said this stuff, and it certainly wasn't any fucking "jesus"

Well then... You could've brought back an autographed copy for me!?

[Cyberman]

It's interesting, isn't it, how the sort of evidence that we unbelievers ask to see is the sort of evidence that is claimed to be out there if we only open our eyes, yet the believers ask for evidence that they know is unreasonable and then crow about it from now until doomsday when we don't present it?

[The Grand Nudger]

Unfortunately, upon rereading the garbage he wrote, the author wisely declined to sign his opus.

[Minimalist]

It's interesting, isn't it, how the sort of evidence that we unbelievers ask to see is the sort of evidence that is claimed to be out there if we only open our eyes, yet the believers ask for evidence that they know is unreasonable and then crow about it from now until doomsday when we don't present it?

One large reason for discounting the assholes, Stim.

[Cyberman]

Yes, it does save time, doesn't it?

[Justtristo]

The interpretations that Christians have of the bible is amazing. Most of the time Christians are trying to explain away so much of the awful stuff that's written in the bible, and try to make it fit into our modern understanding of morality.

However what amazes me more is that when you present modern Christians with what I'd consider one of the better (although perhaps not economically wise) sections of the bible, they equally try to excuse it away, and pretend that it means something else, although it was supposedly said by Jesus himself many times. That is to give up away all your material possessions and live simple lives of spiritual contemplation, owning nothing.

Matthew 19:21 (Context: talking to a man who asks Jesus how to get to heaven.)
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Luke 12:33 ( Jesus preaching to the masses) Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Have the Christians on this forum done this? Do they actually think about what the bible says, or (the more likely explanation) do they simply accept the interpretation of the hybrid capitalist/christian theology pushed by the majority of modern day Christianity.

The poor could be what the Jesus movement called itself, so Jesus is saying give all your earthly possessions to us and then you get into heaven.

[Justtristo]

Might I add that an early Jewish Christian sect, called themselves the ebionites or the poor.

[CapnAwesome]

The poor could be what the Jesus movement called itself, so Jesus is saying give all your earthly possessions to us and then you get into heaven.

I haven't thought of it that way. Jesus himself didn't have any possessions, not that are recorded. Maybe that's the whole basis for the various churches scaring everyone into giving them money.

[Aractus]

The interpretations that Christians have of the bible is amazing. Most of the time Christians are trying to explain away so much of the awful stuff that's written in the bible, and try to make it fit into our modern understanding of morality.

However what amazes me more is that when you present modern Christians with what I'd consider one of the better (although perhaps not economically wise) sections of the bible, they equally try to excuse it away, and pretend that it means something else, although it was supposedly said by Jesus himself many times. That is to give up away all your material possessions and live simple lives of spiritual contemplation, owning nothing.

See this is why I generally don't participate in threads like this. Taking Bible verses out of context, or telling us how to interoperate the Bible (which you don't follow) shows you have little interest in building a robust argument, and are more interested in arguing over trivialities that are so easily refuted as I will demonstrate.

Matthew 19:21 (Context: talking to a man who asks Jesus how to get to heaven.)
Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
...
Have the Christians on this forum done this? Do they actually think about what the bible says, or (the more likely explanation) do they simply accept the interpretation of the hybrid capitalist/christian theology pushed by the majority of modern day Christianity.

Notice how you've already intentionally misquoted the Bible - and then bolded it to make your point firm?

Your argument is that the Bible instructs Christians to sell all of their possessions.

Let's get a few facts straight first.

1. The rich young ruler was not a follower of Christ.
2. Nevertheless he addresses Jesus using a distinguished title "Good Master" (good teacher), which is an unusual title but also shows the ruler places Christ above himself. Nicodemus - another ruler - addresses Jesus with a similar title in John 3:2 (so much for the Bible's inconsistencies), none other address themselves earnestly this way before Christ.
3. He seeks to be justified before God by the Law of Moses.
4. He asks Jesus about the afterlife, being that he was rich and young, death would seem a long way off to him and shows spiritual maturity in asking this question.
5. His question is not "how do I get to heaven" as you claimed it is. His question is "What good deed shall I do that I may have eternal life". He specifically asks how to EARN eternal life, not how to receive it.
6. Jesus answers his question immediately and the answer is NOT "sell your possessions". His answer to the question is "if you shall enter life, keep the commandments".

7. The ruler subsequently asks "what commandments". His question implies that he is uncertain that he is or can be justified by the Law of Moses. He would know the commandments very well and have no reason to ask what the commandments are.

In response to this Jesus rattles off “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honour your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.”

8. The ruler asserts "All these I have kept". There are two primary flaws is his answer which are about to be exposed. The first is that he was tested using lesser commandments - Christ didn't mention the greatest commandment "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (see Matt 22:34-40). Nor did Jesus mention any other commandment that directly relates to serving God (keeping the Sabbath, absconding from idols, etc).

The second flaw is he has answered only half of the required response. See Ezra 7:10 "For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of Jehovah, and to do it and to teach his statutes and rules in Israel." The young ruler has studied the law diligently, but has not seeketh to do it.


You're going to tell me I'm "explaining away the problem". What utter rubbish, if you bothered to read the Bible in a purely unbiased way then you would not reach the bizarre conclusions that you've drawn.

1 Timothy 6:10 - another verse that readily gets misquoted -
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

[CapnAwesome]

Notice how you've already intentionally misquoted the Bible - and then bolded it to make your point firm?

Your argument is that the Bible instructs Christians to sell all of their possessions.

Let's get a few facts straight first.

1. The rich young ruler was not a follower of Christ.
2. Nevertheless he addresses Jesus using a distinguished title "Good Master" (good teacher), which is an unusual title but also shows the ruler places Christ above himself. Nicodemus - another ruler - addresses Jesus with a similar title in John 3:2 (so much for the Bible's inconsistencies), none other address themselves earnestly this way before Christ.
3. He seeks to be justified before God by the Law of Moses.
4. He asks Jesus about the afterlife, being that he was rich and young, death would seem a long way off to him and shows spiritual maturity in asking this question.
5. His question is not "how do I get to heaven" as you claimed it is. His question is "What good deed shall I do that I may have eternal life". He specifically asks how to EARN eternal life, not how to receive it.
6. Jesus answers his question immediately and the answer is NOT "sell your possessions". His answer to the question is "if you shall enter life, keep the commandments".

7. The ruler subsequently asks "what commandments". His question implies that he is uncertain that he is or can be justified by the Law of Moses. He would know the commandments very well and have no reason to ask what the commandments are.

In response to this Jesus rattles off “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honour your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbour as yourself.”

8. The ruler asserts "All these I have kept". There are two primary flaws is his answer which are about to be exposed. The first is that he was tested using lesser commandments - Christ didn't mention the greatest commandment "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (see Matt 22:34-40). Nor did Jesus mention any other commandment that directly relates to serving God (keeping the Sabbath, absconding from idols, etc).

The second flaw is he has answered only half of the required response. See Ezra 7:10 "For Ezra had set his heart to study the Law of Jehovah, and to do it and to teach his statutes and rules in Israel." The young ruler has studied the law diligently, but has not seeketh to do it.


You're going to tell me I'm "explaining away the problem". What utter rubbish, if you bothered to read the Bible in a purely unbiased way then you would not reach the bizarre conclusions that you've drawn.

1 Timothy 6:10 - another verse that readily gets misquoted -
For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evils. It is through this craving that some have wandered away from the faith and pierced themselves with many pangs.

Oh you've taken it out of context, you've taken it out of context, boo hoo hoo. An Atheist can't say anything about the bible without it being out of context, and then be given the 'correct' context which is the most long winded and manipulative interpretation of a very simple command that Jesus instructs not just the young man in the verse, but his disciples, and general people over and over again. Which is to own little and live simply. The context is simple, not complicated. Why would god make a book which requires this convoluted interpretation disguised as a really simple one? What possessions did Jesus and the Apostles own? What did they spend their time doing? Watching a big screen TV while there are suffering people in the world? That will give you a clue as to how this, and the other similar verses are to be interpreted.

For the record, I don't take the harsh view of the bible that most Atheists on here do, Yeah there is a lot of silliness in it, the old testament has horrible laws, but that's just a product of the times. I happen to this is one of the good verses in it. Good advice on how to live your life. It's too bad Christians want to wiggle their way out of it rather than have their own unbiased reading of the bible.

Second off, I am generally annoyed at the assumption by Christians that somehow Atheists haven't read the bible, or that if they have they've read it biased. Most of us were Christians at some point. I did most of my bible reading as a Christian.