God and his existence
August 13, 2009 at 9:31 am
(This post was last modified: September 18, 2009 at 9:09 am by Guerilla Radio.)
14/8/09
Im going to begin the thread with a brief personal history;
I currently do not believe in God. In my childhood and early teens I cared little about religion but I did believe God existed. These beliefs stemmed not from my personal choice but by listening to the older folks and following family traditions.
Now I say to myself "I do not believe in an Abrahamic version of God; If I believe God - a God - exists, it will be the supernatural and the laws of which this universe operates on." God is the laws of physics and not the protagonist of a sadistic and twisted, ultra-violent horror show novel.
Stop here --> Theists --> Dont bicker with me on this because I'm not going to budge my own spiritual opinions to appeal you.
Continue..
So then how does one go about proving the existence of God (or disproving)? The simple, sweet and short answer is you can't. No matter of effort brought on by either party can advertise "unquestionable!", "indisputable!", "without doubt!" evidence/fact/support/truth (something that really, both groups have been guilty of marketing on the buttocks of their bare, bare shame).
The reason for this is that God is undefined. What is God? Is he (why is it always "he"? Why never "she"? I guess if it were "she" we'd really all be taken care of in a proper manner - no war, hunger, poverty and your lunch would be prepared on the kitchen table for you just before you head out to work/school) human in shape? Is he composed of chemicals from our periodic table? What is his purpose for creating us? At what point do we draw the line between God and our science? (In terms of who is responsible for what)
I'm going to tip the blame scale over into the theists courtyard for this. For a particular reason that just seems to me childish beyond belief. Christians cannot give a succinct definition of what God is - what is his form, the extent of his power, his limitations, etc.
If Christians cannot give a clear and precise boundary to what God is and the above, how is an Atheist to disprove the undefined? I really don't understand how Christians have kept this charade up for so many centuries. Are we really that poor-performing as a species? Logic only seems to be thrown out the window whenever a question is asked and I honestly believe some of the responses have just been pulled out of their asses (maybe attribute it to them being caught on the spot alright fair enough, but honestly the amount is ridiculous);
If God created man in his own image, how come we cannot see him?
The norm response to this has been that he is either invisible or that he is all around us. Of course both are ridiculous. How is God to take human figure and to be immaterial? To take an immaterial form would question how it is he could have created Adam and Eve in "his own image" if he has no figure of his own of which he can sculpt from. And on the other end, if he is of a human image then where is he? High up? Sky's the limit? I hope the air traffic doesn't piss him off up there and I'd hate to be him trying to sleep in and have the crew from Apollo 13 blast their ship off to the moon.
I want to ask about the Holy Trinity for a moment; If there was the Father and the Holy Spirit and the Son was born on earth who then became the Father what became of the Son? How are the three in one and the one in three? Is Jesus now God or has God absorbed Jesus into his supreme being? How do you split between the Father and the Holy Spirit? Are they not the same as we've never had the Father visit the earth? Whats the distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit and which one knocked up Mary?
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15/8/09
Back on track.
It just seems that for whatever question the Atheist poses, the Christian seems to have an excuse for (I say the word "excuse" because the Christian doesn't provide an answer at all). And these Christians when penetrated so deeply with queries and the FAQs, there's always a safety net they hide behind when they just can't quite find the right response and that net is faith. Faith to believe whatever the church rams down the throats of it's hysterical lemming followers. Christianity is no different from a mass, globalized, financially-interested cult. In fact, it is. When one throws faith into the care of others one is signing over their trust to the responsibility of the other party. And as our past has shown us, we can't be trusted to take care of anything - not even the very planet we rely on. A BIG gamble to place our lifestyles in the trust of pederastic old men I would say, if we can't do the aforementioned.
That's however getting sidetracked, the problem is that Christians will create any excuse for God's existence. I have always myself wondered however;
If said spiritual being had existed - a supreme God whom was both in shape and form yet invisible with extraordinary power and might, the ability to control time and space and form matter out of nonexistence - then why aren't Christians open-minded about other possible avenues that especially relate to God and the supernatural? I'd only assume that one who has to believe God can perform all these tricks and break nature's well known and accepted laws and theories would have to accept the many, many different possibilities of who and what God is. Or that the Christian God isn't necessarily the correct God.
What I'm trying to say is that science is a subject and philosophy that is based on establishing fact with evidence and supporting proof. Science has to prove itself for the sake of itself. Science will prove magnetism or aerodynamics, as examples. But what of God and Christianity?
No evidence to prove he's there, what he is or the extent of his abilities. So why not reserve the possibility that he may be a she? May be of dark skin instead? May be of no sex? May not even be a human? May be a lion? May be a whale? May not even be an animal? May be a tree? May be a mountain? May be a sun? Or the moon? May be the air? May be the soil? May not even be a tangible object? In the end the point that I'm trying to establish is that Christians who are ready to believe such Biblical stories about God should be keeping an open-mind and asking more questions than the atheists about God, and not readily believe whatever is spoon-fed to them. If you're going to believe such absurdities, you may as well go the entire length and not narrow your mind down to what the church says.
Side Question: I always thought religion was a private and personal matter. Why have we created organizations dedicated to it? How is that personal? And why are there tax exempt statuses for any religious group? Why is there even money involved in this anyway?
-----
18/9/09
Cool. Uni break.
I noticed I have not posted in over a month but I am going to stick to my promise of frequently updating this thread as I am a man of my word. Unlike some other above mentioned parties who shall go unnamed yet quite obviously referred to.
I've thought about this for a moment and I have observed this being raised in the following posts particularly by AZEL. The thought that crossed my mind was
"Why is it that the story behind Jesus can be considered truth and miraculous yet the stories behind other civilizations are discarded as myth and legends?"
To say what is the distinction between Christian myth and other past polytheist and monotheist cults? The stories are both ridiculous and contain exaggerated eye witness accounts plus a set of mishaps of events with respect to the laws of physics.
A simple example. Comparison of Greek mythology to Christian mythology. Achilles was close to striking King Agamemnon with his sword during the siege of Troy but was interrupted and deterred by the wise words of Athena where she told him to keep his cool and his sword sheathed. Someone kindly inform me how this would be considered myth compared to the Christian tales of Jesus having died in a cave and being resurrected in three days suddenly ascending into the skies?
I will also make another side note that I think is worth mentioning. Christians are the laziest of any religious group. For guidance, assistance, help or protection all that is needed is a simple prayer to the big fellow upstairs. Simply nothing else is required. No virgin sacrifices or gifts of slaughtered livestock for him to feed on or have his sick, twisted way with. Just a simple request. If it happens then it's divine. God listened. If not then so be it. It was in God's will anyway. Coincidence and consequence are two words I believe Christians have successfully nullified from their vocabulary. It made more sense to offer a sacrifice for protection or good fortune don't you think? Give a little, get a little. Christians however seem to ask and expect results like little spoiled children asking mother and father for the pack of fun size snickers in the confectionery isle of the local supermarket who throws a tantrum and screams and begs and cries when the parent tosses that pack out of the trolley.
Let's just stop here and ask: What makes Christianity the "right" religion? What makes X religion the "wrong" religion?
Better question yet. How do you have a "right" religion and a "wrong" religion?
You know you've hit the bottom of the mental deficit barrel when you begin arguing that there exists a "right" religion and a "wrong" religion. And if you start arguing that your religion is "right"...
-----
Im going to cut this off at this point as for me this has already taken a while to type up and I'm not about to begin writing an essay just yet. I intend to continue posting segments further on and trying to keep within the title category.
Speaking of category I hope this is in the right discussion forum.
Im going to begin the thread with a brief personal history;
I currently do not believe in God. In my childhood and early teens I cared little about religion but I did believe God existed. These beliefs stemmed not from my personal choice but by listening to the older folks and following family traditions.
Now I say to myself "I do not believe in an Abrahamic version of God; If I believe God - a God - exists, it will be the supernatural and the laws of which this universe operates on." God is the laws of physics and not the protagonist of a sadistic and twisted, ultra-violent horror show novel.
Stop here --> Theists --> Dont bicker with me on this because I'm not going to budge my own spiritual opinions to appeal you.
Continue..
So then how does one go about proving the existence of God (or disproving)? The simple, sweet and short answer is you can't. No matter of effort brought on by either party can advertise "unquestionable!", "indisputable!", "without doubt!" evidence/fact/support/truth (something that really, both groups have been guilty of marketing on the buttocks of their bare, bare shame).
The reason for this is that God is undefined. What is God? Is he (why is it always "he"? Why never "she"? I guess if it were "she" we'd really all be taken care of in a proper manner - no war, hunger, poverty and your lunch would be prepared on the kitchen table for you just before you head out to work/school) human in shape? Is he composed of chemicals from our periodic table? What is his purpose for creating us? At what point do we draw the line between God and our science? (In terms of who is responsible for what)
I'm going to tip the blame scale over into the theists courtyard for this. For a particular reason that just seems to me childish beyond belief. Christians cannot give a succinct definition of what God is - what is his form, the extent of his power, his limitations, etc.
If Christians cannot give a clear and precise boundary to what God is and the above, how is an Atheist to disprove the undefined? I really don't understand how Christians have kept this charade up for so many centuries. Are we really that poor-performing as a species? Logic only seems to be thrown out the window whenever a question is asked and I honestly believe some of the responses have just been pulled out of their asses (maybe attribute it to them being caught on the spot alright fair enough, but honestly the amount is ridiculous);
If God created man in his own image, how come we cannot see him?
The norm response to this has been that he is either invisible or that he is all around us. Of course both are ridiculous. How is God to take human figure and to be immaterial? To take an immaterial form would question how it is he could have created Adam and Eve in "his own image" if he has no figure of his own of which he can sculpt from. And on the other end, if he is of a human image then where is he? High up? Sky's the limit? I hope the air traffic doesn't piss him off up there and I'd hate to be him trying to sleep in and have the crew from Apollo 13 blast their ship off to the moon.
I want to ask about the Holy Trinity for a moment; If there was the Father and the Holy Spirit and the Son was born on earth who then became the Father what became of the Son? How are the three in one and the one in three? Is Jesus now God or has God absorbed Jesus into his supreme being? How do you split between the Father and the Holy Spirit? Are they not the same as we've never had the Father visit the earth? Whats the distinction between the Father and the Holy Spirit and which one knocked up Mary?
-----
15/8/09
Back on track.
It just seems that for whatever question the Atheist poses, the Christian seems to have an excuse for (I say the word "excuse" because the Christian doesn't provide an answer at all). And these Christians when penetrated so deeply with queries and the FAQs, there's always a safety net they hide behind when they just can't quite find the right response and that net is faith. Faith to believe whatever the church rams down the throats of it's hysterical lemming followers. Christianity is no different from a mass, globalized, financially-interested cult. In fact, it is. When one throws faith into the care of others one is signing over their trust to the responsibility of the other party. And as our past has shown us, we can't be trusted to take care of anything - not even the very planet we rely on. A BIG gamble to place our lifestyles in the trust of pederastic old men I would say, if we can't do the aforementioned.
That's however getting sidetracked, the problem is that Christians will create any excuse for God's existence. I have always myself wondered however;
If said spiritual being had existed - a supreme God whom was both in shape and form yet invisible with extraordinary power and might, the ability to control time and space and form matter out of nonexistence - then why aren't Christians open-minded about other possible avenues that especially relate to God and the supernatural? I'd only assume that one who has to believe God can perform all these tricks and break nature's well known and accepted laws and theories would have to accept the many, many different possibilities of who and what God is. Or that the Christian God isn't necessarily the correct God.
What I'm trying to say is that science is a subject and philosophy that is based on establishing fact with evidence and supporting proof. Science has to prove itself for the sake of itself. Science will prove magnetism or aerodynamics, as examples. But what of God and Christianity?
No evidence to prove he's there, what he is or the extent of his abilities. So why not reserve the possibility that he may be a she? May be of dark skin instead? May be of no sex? May not even be a human? May be a lion? May be a whale? May not even be an animal? May be a tree? May be a mountain? May be a sun? Or the moon? May be the air? May be the soil? May not even be a tangible object? In the end the point that I'm trying to establish is that Christians who are ready to believe such Biblical stories about God should be keeping an open-mind and asking more questions than the atheists about God, and not readily believe whatever is spoon-fed to them. If you're going to believe such absurdities, you may as well go the entire length and not narrow your mind down to what the church says.
Side Question: I always thought religion was a private and personal matter. Why have we created organizations dedicated to it? How is that personal? And why are there tax exempt statuses for any religious group? Why is there even money involved in this anyway?
-----
18/9/09
Cool. Uni break.
I noticed I have not posted in over a month but I am going to stick to my promise of frequently updating this thread as I am a man of my word. Unlike some other above mentioned parties who shall go unnamed yet quite obviously referred to.
I've thought about this for a moment and I have observed this being raised in the following posts particularly by AZEL. The thought that crossed my mind was
"Why is it that the story behind Jesus can be considered truth and miraculous yet the stories behind other civilizations are discarded as myth and legends?"
To say what is the distinction between Christian myth and other past polytheist and monotheist cults? The stories are both ridiculous and contain exaggerated eye witness accounts plus a set of mishaps of events with respect to the laws of physics.
A simple example. Comparison of Greek mythology to Christian mythology. Achilles was close to striking King Agamemnon with his sword during the siege of Troy but was interrupted and deterred by the wise words of Athena where she told him to keep his cool and his sword sheathed. Someone kindly inform me how this would be considered myth compared to the Christian tales of Jesus having died in a cave and being resurrected in three days suddenly ascending into the skies?
I will also make another side note that I think is worth mentioning. Christians are the laziest of any religious group. For guidance, assistance, help or protection all that is needed is a simple prayer to the big fellow upstairs. Simply nothing else is required. No virgin sacrifices or gifts of slaughtered livestock for him to feed on or have his sick, twisted way with. Just a simple request. If it happens then it's divine. God listened. If not then so be it. It was in God's will anyway. Coincidence and consequence are two words I believe Christians have successfully nullified from their vocabulary. It made more sense to offer a sacrifice for protection or good fortune don't you think? Give a little, get a little. Christians however seem to ask and expect results like little spoiled children asking mother and father for the pack of fun size snickers in the confectionery isle of the local supermarket who throws a tantrum and screams and begs and cries when the parent tosses that pack out of the trolley.
Let's just stop here and ask: What makes Christianity the "right" religion? What makes X religion the "wrong" religion?
Better question yet. How do you have a "right" religion and a "wrong" religion?
You know you've hit the bottom of the mental deficit barrel when you begin arguing that there exists a "right" religion and a "wrong" religion. And if you start arguing that your religion is "right"...
-----
Im going to cut this off at this point as for me this has already taken a while to type up and I'm not about to begin writing an essay just yet. I intend to continue posting segments further on and trying to keep within the title category.
Speaking of category I hope this is in the right discussion forum.
