What is secularism for you?

[Something completely different]

Has anyone here ever opened a Danish passport?

Well if you do you will find this on the first page:

---

---

It is a depiction of Haralds runestone:

---

---

The stone was created in Denmark under the rule od King Harald Bluetooth.
Harald was the last viking king, who had enhareted an enormous scandinavian empire, streching from Poland to Norway to France.
But his kingdom was pagan, so every other christian European monarch could legitematly invade and destroy his kingdom on the basis that it wasn`t christian.
So King Harald converted to christianity, thereby ending the Viking era and making Denmark a legitemate sovereign nation in Europe.
The jelling stones celebrate this and are depicted on the first page of a Danish passport.


Ever heared the long version of the Dutch national anthem?

---

William of Nassau, scion
Of a Dutch and ancient line,
I dedicate undying
Faith to this land of mine.
A prince I am, undaunted,
Of Orange, ever free,
To the king of Spain I've granted
A lifelong loyalty.

(Now here it get`s interesting)

I 've ever tried to live in
The fear of God's command
And therefore I've been driven,
From people, home, and land,
But God, I trust, will rate me
His willing instrument
And one day reinstate me
Into my government.

Let no despair betray you,
My subjects true and good.
The Lord will surely stay you
Though now you are pursued.
He who would live devoutly
Must pray God day and night
To throw His power about me
As champion of your right.
Life and my all for others
I sacrificed, for you!
And my illustrious brothers
Proved their devotion too.
Count Adolf, more's the pity,
Fell in the Frisian fray,
And in the eternal city
Awaits the judgement day.

I, nobly born, descended
From an imperial stock.
An empire's prince, defended
(Braving the battle's shock
Heroically and fearless
As pious Christian ought)
With my life's blood the peerless
Gospel of God our Lord.

A shield and my reliance,
O God, Thou ever wert.
I'll trust unto Thy guidance.
O leave me not ungirt.
That I may stay a pious
Servant of Thine for aye
And drive the plagues that try us
And tyranny away.

My God, I pray thee, save me
From all who do pursue
And threaten to enslave me,
Thy trusted servant true.
O Father, do not sanction
Their wicked, foul design,
Don't let them wash their hands in
This guiltless blood of mine.

O David, thou soughtest shelter
From King Saul's tyranny.
Even so I fled this welter
And many a lord with me.
But God the Lord did save me
From exile and its hell
And, in His mercy, gave him
A realm in Israel.

Fear not 't will rain sans ceasing
The clouds are bound to part.
I bide that sight so pleasing
Unto my princely heart,
Which is that I with honor
Encounter death in war,
And meet in heaven my Donor,
His faithful warrior.
Nothing so moves my pity
As seeing through these lands,
Field, village, town and city
Pillaged by roving hands.
O that the Spaniards rape thee,
My Netherlands so sweet,
The thought of that does grip me
Causing my heart to bleed.

A stride on steed of mettle
I've waited with my host
The tyrant's call to battle,
Who durst not do his boast.
For, near Maastricht ensconced,
He feared the force I wield.
My horsemen saw one bounce it
Bravely across the field.

Surely, if God had willed it,
When that fierce tempest blew,
My power would have stilled it,
Or turned its blast from you
But He who dwells in heaven,
Whence all our blessings flow,
For which aye praise be given,
Did not desire it so.

Steadfast my heart remaineth
In my adversity
My princely courage straineth
All nerves to live and be.
I've prayed the Lord my Master
With fervid heart and tense
To save me from disaster
And prove my innocence.

Alas! my flock. To sever
Is hard on us. Farewell.
Your Shepherd wakes, wherever
Dispersed you may dwell,
Pray God that He may ease you.
His Gospel be your cure.
Walk in the steps of Jesu
This life will not endure.

Unto the Lord His power
I do not confession make
That ne'er at any hour
Ill of the King I spake.
But unto God, the greatest
Of Majesties I owe
Obedience first and latest,
For Justice wills it so.

---

Now I am not sure how many parts of this old anthem are used today, but it does speak volumes about the netherlands calvenist past.

And the British national anthem also is God save the queen.

technicaly speaking, the UK is still a theocracy.
Why?
Because the monarch is officialy anointed by god.

There are various examples of religious text or tradition having influence in European goverment process as a formal matter.

So I guess what I would like to ask is, what seperation of religion and state exactly means for you?
Do you need every sign of religion to disapear even out of formal processes. Or is the fact that the goverment doesnt establish religious institutions, doesn`t discriminate certain faiths or non faiths and treats all the same enought for you?

Or are you someone who believes religion and state shouldnt be seperated at all?

[Dee Dee Ramone]

Ever heared the long version of the Dutch national anthem?

Now I am not sure how many parts of this old anthem are used today, but it does speak volumes about the netherlands calvenist past.

Only the first part before sport games; most dutch people, including me, don't have a clue about the rest of the national anthem. National anthems are for sentimental wankers anyway.

In general, I think any state reference to God must be taken away...but I don't think we need to re-write history by deleting all references to a god.

---

Secularism = Gott mitt uns

[Angrboda]

I'm in favor of complete separation of church and state, including removal of all religious reference, with very limited exception for clearly historical traditions.

That being said, I recognize that the reality is that we will never have total separation, and simply hope for the more oppressive examples being removed.

I also believe that change which happens too quickly can be as harmful as tarrying in addressing inequities, and argue for a middle course.

[Ryantology]

Government has no business promoting fairy tales in any capacity. Period.

[jonb]

Governments, and systems of control don't matter that much, the culture is what is important, it is very hard to impose a tyranny and sustain it on a liberal culture, and it is also difficult to impose a liberal governance on a culture which is not accepting of difference.