free will paradox

[Esquilax]

@EsQ: That's great that you're good. As God is pure good then no one, not even you (no disrespect), comes up to that standard. Not getting to that standard limits your potential to get the most out of life. You're focusing on the just consequences of being bad. Of course this has to be so, or there isn't justice. Once a person has made good, then their punishment ends. This applies to the present, but has to be fully realised in the afterlife. Because as you know, life isn't fair.

Interesting. So despite the fact that I have committed no crime, I'm still to be punished? Presumably for original sin, or my lack of belief? I'd submit to you that neither of those are punishable offences; original sin would be a downright immoral thing to send someone to hell over, since we aren't in the habit of punishing the descendants for the sins of their forefathers. And I'd be shocked to hear you declare that god is love, yet still punishes disbelief like that.

Love is God, because no matter what, he still loves you. God won't force you to worship him, but nothing would make you happier than to do so. That's what God wants for you: the best you can be.

What a funny way of showing that love.

Do you think that the Jews were wrong in concluding that God is good then? They get this from the same text that you draw the opposite conclusion.

Yes, pretty much. Why? Do you think they'd occupy some special pedestal in my mind that would prevent me from saying they were wrong?

God loves all people. Unreservedly. Forgiveness is freely offered to everyone.

What, exactly, am I being forgiven for?

Like I said, worshipping God is what benefits you the most. Why shouldn't you want that? I am mystified.

How is worshiping god best for us? I mean, what positive benefits does it confer upon a person that can't be obtained elsewhere? Beyond that, it clearly doesn't work that way for everyone; people leave religions all the time, or convert between them, and I hear plenty of stories about adults and children driven neurotic by their fear of hell.

So you are saying that when your aim was not on goodness, you were happier?? Yes we hear that all the time. Perhaps you were confused about what God is. Because bettering perfect good is a nonsensical claim. Your bitterness tells another story.

Careful: she said nothing about goodness, she said she stopped believing in god. You may think the two concepts are inextricably linked, but they're still two distinct concepts, and she gave up on one of those, not the other. As for this claim of perfect good... highly dubious, unless you can furnish me with some proof. I'll keep an open mind, if you happen to have some studies linking religiosity with happiness, I'll take a look. But don't call my fiancee bitter: even after deconverting she's the sweetest woman I've ever met. Nothing changed in her for the worse when she stopped believing, and I was around for the before and the after, there.

I see. So you are blaming God for the mistakes of misguided people.
And then you replace that with superstition: luck.

Two things: one, those people were claiming to be representing what god wants/can do, and notably god did nothing to correct that misconception, despite the fact that doing so would be the honest thing- important for a just being, I would think- and would have prevented some serious suffering on missluckie's part. Secondly, god rather did allow her to enter that state of ill health through no fault of her own to begin with, didn't he?

Lastly, she's hardly worshiping luck, just observing that she's fortunate to be alive. Something I agree with: she could very easily have died, and from the perspective of our nonbelief, the fact that she didn't does make her lucky. And I, for one, am immeasurably glad for that.

Yes them too. I bet you're still going to say they got it wrong.

Seriously, do you think we all have some intellectual soft spot for the jews??? Why would we be reluctant to say that they were wrong?

[Ryantology]

What, exactly, am I being forgiven for?

That's the big rub. I see no reason to seek forgiveness. Only those whom I have wronged have the right to expect repentance from me, and I will never seek to atone for breaking completely unreasonable rules. Even if God existed, I would not owe him anything.

If anything, God owes humanity, not the other way around. Being a father does not entitle one to be abusive and neglectful to his children.

[fr0d0]

Because you are not perfect, you attract 'punishment', God or no God. With God, you get to override.

It's funny to show you love in the form of enabling you to be the best you can be? Why??

The Jews wrote the book dude. You think you understand it better than they do? How odd.

What are you forgiven for? You tell me. I have no idea. did you harbour some hatred once? Life depriving action transformed.

Fear of hell is the opposite of God. If you're feeling guilty, you need to deal with that. Like we know, God forgives, so guilt is wiped out. Left to your own devices, God's potential isn't available. The best choice is God.

She said nothing of goodness, no. But it's the same thing. Can't you see? You're attempting to re-define goodness so that you can rebel against it. It doesn't matter what you call it, just don't twist it into something else. Deal with the reality and don't run away. Why does she harbour bitterness if she's happy? Better to place the blame firmly where it sits. Maybe then you/she can move on.

So you devolve to superstition twice. 1. Luck saved you. 2. Magic didn't save you. that's the kind of superstitious nonsense I hate. Yeah be thankful and embrace positivity for what you have. At some point you're going to see that we're both talking about the same thing, and drop the misplaced hatred.

[Darkstar]

Because you are not perfect, you attract 'punishment', God or no God.

Uh...no. Unless of course punishment is very vaguely defined. We can't go to hell if there is not god to send us there. We attract punishment for being the way god made us? And him offering the chance to grovel at his feet for survial is mercy? More like a very very bad case of Stockholm's syndrome.

Fear of hell is the opposite of God. If you're feeling guilty, you need to deal with that. Like we know, God forgives, so guilt is wiped out.

I bet Hitler didn't feel guilty.

I have a better idea; rather than letting people get away with murder (literally), he should just stop punishing people for the arbitrary stuff, and the stuff that is unavoidable due to design flaws he deliberately put in us.

[Angrboda]

And so it was that later
As the miller told his tale
That her face, at first just ghostly,
Turned a whiter shade of pale.

[Esquilax]

Because you are not perfect, you attract 'punishment', God or no God. With God, you get to override.

Ah. So because I'm not perfect, I should be punished? I have flaws, so hellfire is appropriate? How does this seem fair to you?

It's funny to show you love in the form of enabling you to be the best you can be? Why??

I was really talking about the "you're going to hell no matter what, because you're not as great as me" mentality of the dude, there.

The Jews wrote the book dude. You think you understand it better than they do? How odd.

And? The issue is that the book is an immoral book. I don't care who wrote it, if they did so under anything other than the guise of fiction, they are just as immoral.

What are you forgiven for? You tell me. I have no idea. did you harbour some hatred once? Life depriving action transformed.

Oh, it's thoughtcrime now? Yeah, that always works out so very well...

Fear of hell is the opposite of God. If you're feeling guilty, you need to deal with that. Like we know, God forgives, so guilt is wiped out. Left to your own devices, God's potential isn't available. The best choice is God.

No no: no fear, no guilt. I have nothing to feel guilty about. What I'm feeling is frustration that this assumption of punishment from birth is still a thing to some of you people. Can't you see how wrong that is?

She said nothing of goodness, no. But it's the same thing. Can't you see? You're attempting to re-define goodness so that you can rebel against it. It doesn't matter what you call it, just don't twist it into something else. Deal with the reality and don't run away. Why does she harbour bitterness if she's happy? Better to place the blame firmly where it sits. Maybe then you/she can move on.

You're the one attempting to redefine things. Humans can do good things, can't they? You think god's nature is good, but that doesn't mean god is the only good thing. One can disbelieve in him without losing their sense of morality, or their appreciation of goodness. This is what I'm saying: she hasn't turned her back on goodness, just on god. Now, she simply believes goodness comes from a different source.

Also, we're not rebelling. There's nothing to rebel against. We don't believe in your god, so this idea makes about as much sense as the old "you're just an atheist because you're angry at god!" canard.

Oh, and I said my fiancee wasn't bitter. She's really not: sweetest little thing in the world, that girl. Losing her theism hasn't changed anything about her personality.

So you devolve to superstition twice. 1. Luck saved you. 2. Magic didn't save you. that's the kind of superstitious nonsense I hate. Yeah be thankful and embrace positivity for what you have. At some point you're going to see that we're both talking about the same thing, and drop the misplaced hatred.

We're just using words. When we say that she was "lucky" to have survived, we aren't invoking some external force called Luck that swooped down and saved her. We're simply expressing our joy at her survival, and our acknowledgement of the fact that the odds weren't exactly stacked in her favor, there. Nobody is praying at the altar of Luck, we're just using the english language as it was intended.

Oh, and we don't hate god either. We don't believe in him. We can't hate that which doesn't exist, and besides that, I've purposefully kept things measured and calm here to avoid being called hateful. I'm just having a debate: please don't ascribe emotive things to me that I don't have.

[Mystical]

Do you think that the Jews were wrong in concluding that God is good then? They get this from the same text that you draw the opposite conclusion.

Are you really quoting the Jews here as the authority on god? They deny his one and only begotton son.

God won't force you to worship him, but nothing would make you happier than to do so.

Still don't get how you know what would make me happier? Even when I was a Christian, I just had to deal with the fact that athiests
were going to be happy and I wasn't, plain and simple. I was taught that life was easy street for athiests because they didn't have
to limit their deeds based on what was right--thus I believed that they got a pass from the devil and good lives while I was left
in the dust choking on it because I was fighting for what's right, which is god. Was I bitter then? Oh yeah. Are you bitter now?
Oh hell yes you are. You can't tell me you arent. I guarantee that I am less bitter now, then I was before. I was angry not only at the
world, myself (for my sinful nature), but I was also mad at god. I mean, was I more secure in thinking there's an afterlife and that I
was created for a purpose, Sure. I felt special.
Oh and fulfilled knowing that athiests would find out in the end that they were wrong and lived their lives wrong (isn't that sadistic?).
But was I happy?
Absolutely not. Absolutely NOT.
I also believed that I'd be rewarded for my goodness as a Christian. Now I do good not for rewards, but because it makes me happy. I can still do good, and it still makes me happy--WiThout god.
Am I bitter at the life not well spent on my part? Sure I am! Not because of all the "sins" I could've done, but because of the absolute impoverishment (emotionally, physically, financially) that I subjected myself to.
And before you go saying I'm dishonest with money that's how I'm better off financially: I'm better off now because I set limits on how much of myself I give, it has nothing to do with athiesm but all to do with not believing that as a Christian I must give my all to make those around me suffer less. And actually, my charity level has gone up in this process--while my poverty has gone down.
Looking back at all the fallacies I was lead to believe, and the conclusion of choosing to believe them--you'd be bitter too if you were me.
Let me give you an example of what I mean by impoverished.
My father has bipolar disorder, and believes that doctors are just trying to play god themselves with their drugs. My mother spent 20yrs of
hellish torment for herself, me and my brother--fighting his disease with 'prayer'. Not one single instance did our prayers do a goddamn thing and we just spent our lives in subjugation to a life of unhappiness and absolute torment, because my mom did not feel justified in leaving her husband even in 'sickness'.

Since becoming aware of the fact that I need not be angry at god for my lifetime of bullshit, I've become happy for the first time <IN MY LIFE>
And my lifestyle has not changed one bit from before deconversion to now, so you can't say that I'm
happier cuz now I get to sin. I'm happier because a weight has been lifted off my shoulders, actually.

I see. So you are blaming God for the mistakes of misguided people.
And then you replace that with superstition: luck.
I'm really glad you're getting better. Thank God you saw sense.

I'd be blaming god for the misguidance, yeah. If I believed in him. Now I blame no one, and I'm content.

PS I'm not superstitious, but thanks for playing.

[Angrboda]

[fr0d0]

Ah. So because I'm not perfect, I should be punished? I have flaws, so hellfire is appropriate? How does this seem fair to you?

Yeah. It's called justice. You think people should get away with bad stuff?
"Hellfire" lol. Sounds scary doesn't it. Of course you're trying to say you're own slight disdemeanours don't warrant the same punishment as a serial murderer right? Well who said you did? If God is just, as I believe, how do you rationalise that? Because I cant. What I've been talking about here is hell on earth. this life where what comes around, goes around, You reap what you sow. Your own negativity, no matter how small, limits your own enjoyment of life. I'm sure you'd agree with that on a secular level.

I was really talking about the "you're going to hell no matter what, because you're not as great as me" mentality of the dude, there.

That mentality is entirely your own and nothing to do with my beliefs. I find that incredibly childish.

Here you're presented with an idea that you are given an opportunity to achieve perfection although you are not perfect. The only aim of which is to give you happiness. What would your response be to such a gift? A: "This benefactor must be forcing this crap life upon me because I'm not perfect like it is, therefore I'm not happy with it."

And? The issue is that the book is an immoral book. I don't care who wrote it, if they did so under anything other than the guise of fiction, they are just as immoral.

Pardon me if it don't take the author nations' word over yours.
Is there immorality in extremes in the Bible. Sure there is. Is there evidence of God being bad. None. Justice, like you've suggested, meets the crime. Big crimes attract big punishment. The Bible has to address extremes to illustrate the point.
A lot of modern societies laws are built upon the moral guidelines found in this book. As we become further departed in our understanding of it, we become more primitive in our morals, that is, less moral.

thoughtcrime

If it's harmful to you, do you not want to deal with that? This is your personal hell.

What I'm feeling is frustration that this assumption of punishment from birth is still a thing to some of you people. Can't you see how wrong that is?

Well the basis of Christianity is that assumption that people aren't born perfect. This is very clearly illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve. Man is fallible/ has the predisposition to fall. This seems to be the common zeitgiest too. People on here concur, when I've asked. What is your opinion then EsQ? Do you think that people are perfect and have no need of improving themselves?
Children are innocents, to be sure. They are born with the same predispositions of all humans. We teach them civility hopefully, in order to function in a society.

Humans can do good things, can't they? You think god's nature is good, but that doesn't mean god is the only good thing. One can disbelieve in him without losing their sense of morality, or their appreciation of goodness. This is what I'm saying: she hasn't turned her back on goodness, just on god. Now, she simply believes goodness comes from a different source.

I didn't claim any exclusivity on goodness. I didn't even claim any exclusiveness on ultimate goodness. Morality, rooted in ultimate good always trumps morality rooted in the mediocre. Seems to me she's turned her back on some very worrying craziness that I don't recognise even slightly. What the hell was she? Where does she believe goodness comes from now then? From the good deeds of people? A secular realist fights against the mediocre. Doing good stuff, like you say you are doing, is very similar to what I'm promoting. Somehow I'm involved in some deep rooted evil where I see you as nice people doing what I would want all people to do. Why are you attcking me?

Oh, and I said my fiancee wasn't bitter. She's really not: sweetest little thing in the world, that girl. Losing her theism hasn't changed anything about her personality.

You say that like it ought to have done lol

We're just using words. When we say that she was "lucky" to have survived, we aren't invoking some external force called Luck that swooped down and saved her. We're simply expressing our joy at her survival, and our acknowledgement of the fact that the odds weren't exactly stacked in her favor, there. Nobody is praying at the altar of Luck, we're just using the english language as it was intended.

You're using the english language innacurately. People post examples of people using the opposite in lazy speech thanking God that gets ridiculed. Rightly I guess you'd think?

[Ryantology]

Yeah. It's called justice. You think people should get away with bad stuff?

That depends on what you define as 'bad'. As noted elsewhere, you believe that genocide, rape, and child murder are not bad. God clearly is okay with these activities. To God, it is bad for a child to disrespect his dad, but entirely acceptable for Dad to kill that child in response.

"Hellfire" lol. Sounds scary doesn't it. Of course you're trying to say you're own slight disdemeanours don't warrant the same punishment as a serial murderer right? Well who said you did? If God is just, as I believe, how do you rationalise that? Because I cant. What I've been talking about here is hell on earth. this life where what comes around, goes around, You reap what you sow. Your own negativity, no matter how small, limits your own enjoyment of life. I'm sure you'd agree with that on a secular level.

If God was just, good behaviors would always be rewarded and bad behaviors punished. That only seems to happen in the afterlife, which is convenient because there's no way anyone can verify it.

Pardon me if it don't take the author nations' word over yours.
Is there immorality in extremes in the Bible. Sure there is. Is there evidence of God being bad. None. Justice, like you've suggested, meets the crime. Big crimes attract big punishment. The Bible has to address extremes to illustrate the point.

Yet again, this is proof that you believe genocide is acceptable and good. When God flooded the world, did he make sure to spare children and infants? Of course not. They must have been up to some evil fucking shit, I guess.

A lot of modern societies laws are built upon the moral guidelines found in this book. As we become further departed in our understanding of it, we become more primitive in our morals, that is, less moral.

There are some modern societies built upon the same moral guidelines as found in the Bible, such as North Korea and the Soviet Union under Stalin.

Well the basis of Christianity is that assumption that people aren't born perfect. This is very clearly illustrated in the story of Adam and Eve. Man is fallible/ has the predisposition to fall. This seems to be the common zeitgiest too. People on here concur, when I've asked. What is your opinion then EsQ? Do you think that people are perfect and have no need of improving themselves?

The basis of Christianity is that people are inherently bad and evil wretches.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that humanity is growing up. We started off superstitious and ignorant and being violent as a first resort (and, certainly, a lot still are), but while those 'biblical morals' still exist, they are being replaced by empathy, compassion, and a desire to better ourselves and learn about what is around us.

Children are innocents, to be sure. They are born with the same predispositions of all humans. We teach them civility hopefully, in order to function in a society.

So, why did God massacre so many of them? He murdered all the firstborns of Egypt... because their ruler was a dick? Some justice.

You're using the english language innacurately.

something something throwing stones in glass houses etc.