free will paradox

[fr0d0]

If god knows what choices we make before we make them, and he can't just not create those who will end up in hell because those people are pertinent for the others to choose heaven--then FUCK HIM.

lol you tell him

In the end everyone gets to heaven. It's just some are very obstinate, and need to make themselves suffer first. The truth is undeniable.

[Esquilax]

lol you tell him

In the end everyone gets to heaven. It's just some are very obstinate, and need to make themselves suffer first. The truth is undeniable.

I'm getting really tired of this "you send yourselves to hell" argument. You wouldn't tolerate that in any other aspect of your life- "you asked to get raped," "you got robbed because you owned such nice things!" "it's your fault your car got stolen for leaving the window down a bit"- but when it comes to the matter of a supposedly good creator being, you're perfectly willing to accept victim blaming with a cheerful self righteousness. It's a bit sickening.

Or hey, I don't want to put words into your mouth: do you tolerate that level of victim blaming indiscriminately, like my examples?

[fr0d0]

Well to me Esq, if you do bad stuff, you reap the reward = hell. You seem to be offloading the blame.

By "hell", I mean the just reward for doing bad stuff. In secularism that's a little less obvious. The law isn't always seen to exact justice. But you suffer personally in other ways, if only in your own negativity < it's own punishment.

God = good. Love is God. You deliberately turn that on its head to justify your disbelief. You're fighting with yourself. Remove your prejudice from this (God), and you'd agree with me I'm sure.

[Zen Badger]

If you weren't a free agent, you wouldn't be able to act freely.

You might choose to go swimming, because that was your programming for that moment, but some force would stop you doing it. Nothing you chose you could actually do: you would not be a free agent.

This is not free will. I've already said that free will is impossible.

What are you smoking dude?

[Esquilax]

Well to me Esq, if you do bad stuff, you reap the reward = hell. You seem to be offloading the blame.

By "hell", I mean the just reward for doing bad stuff. In secularism that's a little less obvious. The law isn't always seen to exact justice. But you suffer personally in other ways, if only in your own negativity < it's own punishment.

God = good. Love is God. You deliberately turn that on its head to justify your disbelief. You're fighting with yourself. Remove your prejudice from this (God), and you'd agree with me I'm sure.

Except that I don't do bad things. I've never committed a crime, never even gotten a speeding ticket. I do good by my family, I contribute to charity, I volunteer my time teaching people to read; I'm not brash enough to label myself a good person, but I'm not exactly a bad one, now am I?

But according to the precepts of most any religion I'm going to hell anyway, simply because I don't believe. Or because I've slept with a few men in the past. Or hell, because I've violated any number of arbitrary rules (I'll admit, I've worked on the sabbath before.)

Because it's not really about being a good person, is it? It's about bowing down and prostrating yourself toward an idea. I'm not a negative person, I'm very happy, content in my life and all that. It's not a matter of negativity here, and honestly, this whole "God is love" thing comes across to me as Stockholm Syndrome.

To be clear: God is not love. He's going to burn me for eternity- or any period of time, I get the feeling you disagree it's eternal but the time isn't the point- for not prostrating myself before him. This is not a loving action, and it's been repeated countless times throughout the ages, if one believes the bible. It's sick.

[Angrboda]

God = good. Love is God. You deliberately turn that on its head to justify your disbelief. You're fighting with yourself. Remove your prejudice from this (God), and you'd agree with me I'm sure.

[fr0d0]

@EsQ: That's great that you're good. As God is pure good then no one, not even you (no disrespect), comes up to that standard. Not getting to that standard limits your potential to get the most out of life. You're focusing on the just consequences of being bad. Of course this has to be so, or there isn't justice. Once a person has made good, then their punishment ends. This applies to the present, but has to be fully realised in the afterlife. Because as you know, life isn't fair.

Love is God, because no matter what, he still loves you. God won't force you to worship him, but nothing would make you happier than to do so. That's what God wants for you: the best you can be.

Do you think that the Jews were wrong in concluding that God is good then? They get this from the same text that you draw the opposite conclusion.

[Mystical]

@EsQ: That's great that you're good. As God is pure good then no one, not even you (no disrespect), comes up to that standard.

Love is God, because no matter what, he still loves you. God won't force you to worship him, but nothing would make you happier than to do so. That's what God wants for you: the best you can be.

How can god be love and not love certain people? Drich says god doesn't love us and backs it up with your Bible. I'm not loved until I bow down to god according to scripture, and I'm not his child until I do. God wants me to be the best I can be? How is it that the second I stopped believing in him my life has been the best it can be? Nothing has made me happier in my entire god-filled life, than dropping his ass. It's not because the devil is rewarding me, there is no devil. Just people, just life. In my opinion. It's because my choices in life have been purified, without the influence of god making them. Because when I made decisions based on the will of god, they weren't what was best for my life--I was beat down to a pulp for no reason whatsoever, by myself. You know, I made the decision to deny chemotherapy treatment at some point for my auto-immune disease because my family and a pastor told me god can heal me if I just let him instead of taking the medicines--and I almost died. I'm lucky I'm here, hence my name. I do what I need to do to get better without god in the picture, and hey! I'm getting better! How bout that?

Also with regards to the jews: why don't you ask the multitudes that he opened the earth and swallowed?

[/quote]

[Ryantology]

Love is God, because no matter what, he still loves you. God won't force you to worship him

You have to be a seriously deluded (and functionally illiterate) piece of work to believe that God is love.

[fr0d0]

How can god be love and not love certain people? Drich says god doesn't love us and backs it up with your Bible. I'm not loved until I bow down to god according to scripture, and I'm not his child until I do.

Hey missey C!

God loves all people. Unreservedly. Forgiveness is freely offered to everyone. I'm sure you got Dritch wrong there. Could you link me?
Like I said, worshipping God is what benefits you the most. Why shouldn't you want that? I am mystified.

God wants me to be the best I can be? How is it that the second I stopped believing in him my life has been the best it can be? Nothing has made me happier in my entire god-filled life, than dropping his ass.

So you are saying that when your aim was not on goodness, you were happier?? Yes we hear that all the time. Perhaps you were confused about what God is. Because bettering perfect good is a nonsensical claim. Your bitterness tells another story.

I made the decision to deny chemotherapy treatment at some point for my auto-immune disease because my family and a pastor told me god can heal me if I just let him instead of taking the medicines--and I almost died. I'm lucky I'm here, hence my name. I do what I need to do to get better without god in the picture, and hey! I'm getting better! How bout that?

I see. So you are blaming God for the mistakes of misguided people.
And then you replace that with superstition: luck.
I'm really glad you're getting better. Thank God you saw sense.

Also with regards to the jews: why don't you ask the multitudes that he opened the earth and swallowed?

Yes them too. I bet you're still going to say they got it wrong.