free will paradox

[Mystical]

Of course it affects all of a believers life. It underpin our thinking and our actions. It's pretty unbelievable to you yes, because you don't understand why. I know why I believe. I understand the reasoning I followed to adopt the belief.

I never said it was unbelievable, fr0d0. To me it's unbelievable that you still believe it with the knowledge you've been attaining in this forum.

I don't need you to convince me of that. You seem to be saying the same as me, but then try to convince me of it. I don't need to prove it... I live and breathe it and know my fellow Christians do too.

I'm not fighting you here on that fr0d0, believe what you want, so long as it's true. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell like Godschild does, that's rude. And for gods sakes educate your children unlike that I received. Evolution is real. It is. No question, anymore. Prayer was not taken out of schools: it was just limited from being enforced by those in authority. Don't vote in assholes who let their religious dogma dictate how they legislate eVeryone's lives. Teach those kids how to use their own brains, hmmm? To look at both sides of the story not just one.

1. God isn't soft. God's justice is real... or there is no fairness in the world and hopelessness prevails. Victorian ideas of hell fire are of that era. Preaching hate is anti Christ. I know there are such christians around today that do this.
2. No. Why should it concern me when?
3. Yeah we're living it.

1. Why must there be tit for tat? I have issues with this line of thinking because at it's extreme (which is exactly where humans take beliefs about deities), gods' justice is on earth enforced by the hands of men. What's more, is history is held onto with fierce vigor: you see it in the middle east, you see it in your own belief. The way I see it now fr0d0, is that without leaving those persecutions behind: mankind will not move forward. We will continue to wallow in our own co-hatred and discrimination. I know you see the world as one big ship being filled to the brim with darkness, one tiny point at a time.. But I don't see it that way anymore, and I'm not hopeless. I have so much more hope now, and I'm not self-defeated by my beliefs. I see hope for the future, and it starts with one theist at a time.

2. I ask because unlike you many do believe Christ is coming, and they live their lives like tomorrow he may come. So they don't prepare for the future, they live for just today. Again, you may not care when or watch the world's goings on like the it's the End of Times, but many do. And I did grow up praying every night that Jesus come release us from the torment of this earth. It's depressive, and it made me unhappy.

3. I propose to you that the only holy war we are living is within
your mind. That this 'war' is just "good" and "evil" for lack of better terms, the evil being proliferated and substantiated by theism. Without that shroud of demons and angels and laws and discourse about the laws, of discrimination and history-covet ism--or fights for your spirit and the struggle of where you go in the afterlife: life would be simpler, yes. But it would also be far more clear to those who are ruled by their religions that they're all being a bunch of douche canoes and Maybe, just maybe, we could all move on towards a future together.

If you believe in there being a hell that can quantitatively torment Hitler for the blood on his hands: then you also believe that I am going to hell. For nothing other than rejecting god. That in itself, is messed up.

No it isn't.

I beg to differ.

You can and do (just like any human) put yourself through hell most days. This is you pulling yourself apart from God and his desire for you to be fulfilled and happy.
Part of that hell is you unable to forgive where God can forgive anything. What I and Christians believe that you can't, is that justice prevails. Hitler (/insert person with a lot of bad acts to forgive here) will pay his dues just like anyone else.

That's interesting that you believe this, because I haven't been more happy in my entire life. I know I have work to do yet on myself but that's me de-programming myself from self defeat and imposed dogma.

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences. The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god. I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me. I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be. There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better. There's just today, and tomorrow hopefully, and the rest of my life and that of my childrens lives and their childrens lives to fight for without leaning on the prospect that those who do wrong will be charged with eternal torment later so I need not do anything about it. No more do I live with a defeated attitude towards changing my circumstances in the delusion that I'm fighting a demonic force that's bound to keep me suppressed in this lifetime. I feel entitled to live this life fighting for a place in it just like everyone else, and it's liberating. My quality of life has improved.

We believe in a posthumous judge where you're limited to the injustice of life served out in a persons lifetime. Hitler might have pretty much got away with it, and many people might feel that justice wasn't served.

I think about my tormentors, and I feel bad for them because they too endured some pretty rough shit for having lived this life. We all have a path to take, they took the wrong way and I am not going to let the ripple of their actions continue within me in this life, anymore. I brush off what they did quite easily now and I move on. I barely think about it anymore. And I definitely don't hold in my mind this belief that they'll be tormented in the afterlife for what they did, that's sadistic quite honestly.

So what is messed up? Ickle you who just rejects good and chooses to be good and bad, and gets off scott free just like Hitler who was pretty twisted and did some horendous stuff? This is your reality. Pretty dire isn't it?

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.
Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

And you're wrong, I can see still what it is you see.

Everything you say is evidence of the opposite.

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

It's just that I can see too, what you refuse to see--or what you overlook in your belief that god is the allmighty and powerful and just god.

And what is that exactly? You agree with bastardisation of the text that support your bias?

Please support your assertion that I've bastardised biblical text in any way.

Let's start with just. god being just. You brought up that verse about him being just.
In the bible it states in gods own words that children and babies and mentally defectives are innocent.
Then god orders babies slashed from the mothers' wombs on grounds that their parents were morally bankrupt. (1)
In the new testament it says god does not change. So just because jesus died on the cross does not mean that the god of the OT is any
different now than he was before. Revelations pretty much cements that too. (2)

1. false assumption on your part there.
"Innocent like children" does not equal "all children are innocent".
Only a being capable of knowing the future could know if a child, or all of a persons decendants, turns out to be unforgivably (sic) evil right?

Wrong. Your god knows all possibilities so surely he must know that we are not damned automatically. If we were, and he's willing to prevent that damned life by ripping it out of the womb without giving it a choice: then he'd be wrong in doing so, for supposition states that he wishes to give us free will to choose him or to reject him. If he kills babies out of the womb who have not been able to sin: then he cannot judge them based on future sins that they never committed and still be a Just god. He'd have to send them straight to heaven, and hence over-ride his purpose of giving those spirits free willed choice.

2. Jesus existed before time as God according to John. The divine revelation was acted out as it was destined to. Amid that process God appeared differently, but all the time God was unchanging.

So you believe in more than one god?

[fr0d0]

Of course it affects all of a believers life. It underpins our thinking and our actions. It's pretty unbelievable to you yes, because you don't understand why. I know why I believe. I understand the reasoning I followed to adopt the belief.

I never said it was unbelievable, fr0d0. To me it's unbelievable that you still believe it with the knowledge you've been attaining in this forum.

There is no knowledge imparted anywhere whatsoever on this forum or anywhere else that I have found that even begins to refute what I believe. I'm still searching, and if you find anything let me know and I'll check it out.

You see it is unbelievable to you. Did you ever understand it? I have my doubts, but I give you the benefit of them.

I don't need you to convince me of that. You seem to be saying the same as me, but then try to convince me of it. I don't need to prove it... I live and breathe it and know my fellow Christians do too.

I'm not fighting you here on that fr0d0, believe what you want, so long as it's true. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell like Godschild does, that's rude. And for gods sakes educate your children unlike that I received. Evolution is real. It is. No question, anymore. Prayer was not taken out of schools: it was just limited from being enforced by those in authority. Don't vote in assholes who let their religious dogma dictate how they legislate eVeryone's lives. Teach those kids how to use their own brains, hmmm? To look at both sides of the story not just one.

Future hell is of little interest to me. I'm interested in now, and what stops me from functioning. I guess you are too. Hate preaching = anti Christ. From what I've seen of GodsChild I don't think he/she's guilty of that. Are we talking hatred of dogma here? Is it the words you object to? I guess from you're history that you'd have a lot of baggage attached to the dogma, which GodsChild and I wouldn't recognise.

Evolution is real. Absolutely. No question. Nothing anti Christian about that.

Prayer cannot be enforced. Belief is not belief if it's forced/ Choice cannot be choice if there is no choice. Belief in God cannot be a choice if you're not given the choice to believe or not.

Let children use their own brains. Don't brainwash them with any biggotted information... atheist, Christian, whatever. Let them think for themselves.

1. God isn't soft. God's justice is real... or there is no fairness in the world and hopelessness prevails. Victorian ideas of hell fire are of that era. Preaching hate is anti Christ. I know there are such christians around today that do this.
2. No. Why should it concern me when?
3. Yeah we're living it.

1. Why must there be tit for tat? I have issues with this line of thinking because at it's extreme (which is exactly where humans take beliefs about deities), gods' justice is on earth enforced by the hands of men. What's more, is history is held onto with fierce vigor: you see it in the middle east, you see it in your own belief. The way I see it now fr0d0, is that without leaving those persecutions behind: mankind will not move forward. We will continue to wallow in our own co-hatred and discrimination. I know you see the world as one big ship being filled to the brim with darkness, one tiny point at a time.. But I don't see it that way anymore, and I'm not hopeless. I have so much more hope now, and I'm not self-defeated by my beliefs. I see hope for the future, and it starts with one theist at a time.

Why must there be justice you say? The cause of wars is the need to redress balance > enact justice. With christianity (I only speak for my own faith) there is a solution to redress balance and stop wars: that only God can be fully just. That God enacts justice posthumously.

Now leaving that behind: you have reason for wars and suffering. you have people abusing power, abusing religion to that end, and bringing suffering to us all.

Without forgiveness. Without what our civilisation calls "civilised": from (derived and justified though) our Christian heritage, you have utter hopelessness.

You were subject to crazy, self defeating and therefore absolutely anti God beliefs. Yes I would imagine that a neutral view is far healthier for you. It is clearly inferior to a world view that makes peace rationally justifiable.

By what logic are you saying that theism should be wiped out "one theist at a time"? Suddenly you appear to be a bigot.

2. I ask because unlike you many do believe Christ is coming, and they live their lives like tomorrow he may come. So they don't prepare for the future, they live for just today. Again, you may not care when or watch the world's goings on like the it's the End of Times, but many do. And I did grow up praying every night that Jesus come release us from the torment of this earth. It's depressive, and it made me unhappy.

What you are saying those people are doing there is anti Christ and anti God. This is quite clear. I wish you could see that.

3. I propose to you that the only holy war we are living is within your mind. That this 'war' is just "good" and "evil" for lack of better terms, the evil being proliferated and substantiated by theism. Without that shroud of demons and angels and laws and discourse about the laws, of discrimination and history-covet ism--or fights for your spirit and the struggle of where you go in the afterlife: life would be simpler, yes. But it would also be far more clear to those who are ruled by their religions that they're all being a bunch of douche canoes and Maybe, just maybe, we could all move on towards a future together.

The evil is being proliferated by people going against what the bible and theism states. Wether in the name of theism or atheism, or anything in between.

Moving towards a future without hope is not my idea of a good idea. You might think so but I don't think you've considered any alternative. How does a world without justice ever come to terms with that and live peacefully together? How do you stop human nature? I see no answers from you.

You can and do (just like any human) put yourself through hell most days. This is you pulling yourself apart from God and his desire for you to be fulfilled and happy.
Part of that hell is you unable to forgive where God can forgive anything. What I and Christians believe that you can't, is that justice prevails. Hitler (/insert person with a lot of bad acts to forgive here) will pay his dues just like anyone else.

That's interesting that you believe this, because I haven't been more happy in my entire life. I know I have work to do yet on myself but that's me de-programming myself from self defeat and imposed dogma.

Yeah... you aren't talking about a past good here. You're talking about a past lived anti God.

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences.

No. It's quite typically self imposed.

The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god.

And you think this is pro Christ?!? Wow.

I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me.

The love of Christ in you inspired you to neglect your fellow man. And this is pro Christ?? Wow

I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be.

Your love of christ and justive lead you to leave the world to it's evil ways? Wow.

There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better.

The war is being won all of the time in Christianity. There is the benefit right now in changing those things which rob us of life, and the hope of justice which enables us to logically justify forgiveness, and avoid conflict.

There's just today, and tomorrow hopefully, and the rest of my life and that of my childrens lives and their childrens lives to fight for without leaning on the prospect that those who do wrong will be charged with eternal torment later so I need not do anything about it.

Well you escaped from that evil. Thank God.

No more do I live with a defeated attitude towards changing my circumstances in the delusion that I'm fighting a demonic force that's bound to keep me suppressed in this lifetime. I feel entitled to live this life fighting for a place in it just like everyone else, and it's liberating. My quality of life has improved.

I'm waiting from one reason from you to support your professed past belief in Christ, because all I'm seeing is the opposite. You keep coming out with this bile, and then attributing it to something beautiful, as men always do.

We believe in a posthumous judge where you're limited to the injustice of life served out in a persons lifetime. Hitler might have pretty much got away with it, and many people might feel that justice wasn't served.

I think about my tormentors, and I feel bad for them because they too endured some pretty rough shit for having lived this life. We all have a path to take, they took the wrong way and I am not going to let the ripple of their actions continue within me in this life, anymore. I brush off what they did quite easily now and I move on. I barely think about it anymore. And I definitely don't hold in my mind this belief that they'll be tormented in the afterlife for what they did, that's sadistic quite honestly.

Well yeah, they tortured themselves as well as committing such abominations to others. You no longer abuse others, and you've stopped abusing yourself.

You think Christians want people to suffer in the afterlife? You have some pretty screwed up ideas. I honestly find it hard to comprehend such ignorance of the basic concepts when you also seemingly profess a Christian past. Everything you've said conveys the opposite. I don't care what label you put on it. All of that is anti Christ. No question about it.

So what is messed up? Ickle you who just rejects good and chooses to be good and bad, and gets off scott free just like Hitler who was pretty twisted and did some horendous stuff? This is your reality. Pretty dire isn't it?

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.

People abusing good things, as people do. We should abolish anything good by that rationale then?

Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

Nutjobs are nutjobs. What are you going to do about that?

And you're wrong, I can see still what it is you see.

Everything you say is evidence of the opposite.

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

What you call ignorant every Christian (trinitarian) on here is telling you is mistaken. Just who is it you're taking as authority here?

No one here is adopting that evil you call a christian past. Maybe we could petition Fred Phelps to come and vouch for you?

It's just that I can see too, what you refuse to see--or what you overlook in your belief that god is the allmighty and powerful and just god.

And what is that exactly? You agree with bastardisation of the text that support your bias?

Please support your assertion that I've bastardised biblical text in any way.

I do that at every opportunity. you never seem to continue those discussions though.

Let's start with just. god being just. You brought up that verse about him being just.
In the bible it states in gods own words that children and babies and mentally defectives are innocent.
Then god orders babies slashed from the mothers' wombs on grounds that their parents were morally bankrupt. (1)
In the new testament it says god does not change. So just because jesus died on the cross does not mean that the god of the OT is any
different now than he was before. Revelations pretty much cements that too. (2)

1. false assumption on your part there.
"Innocent like children" does not equal "all children are innocent".
Only a being capable of knowing the future could know if a child, or all of a persons decendants, turns out to be unforgivably (sic) evil right?

Wrong. Your god knows all possibilities so surely he must know that we are not damned automatically. If we were, and he's willing to prevent that damned life by ripping it out of the womb without giving it a choice: then he'd be wrong in doing so, for supposition states that he wishes to give us free will to choose him or to reject him. If he kills babies out of the womb who have not been able to sin: then he cannot judge them based on future sins that they never committed and still be a Just god. He'd have to send them straight to heaven, and hence over-ride his purpose of giving those spirits free willed choice.

If God knows all of time, then he knows what every life does before it begins. You are not damned automatically... but the choices you make are already known to him. Therefore he is not wrong, and your objection fails.

2. Jesus existed before time as God according to John. The divine revelation was acted out as it was destined to. Amid that process God appeared differently, but all the time God was unchanging.

So you believe in more than one god?

No silly. God is 3 persons.

[Esquilax]

1. God isn't soft. God's justice is real... or there is no fairness in the world and hopelessness prevails. Victorian ideas of hell fire are of that era. Preaching hate is anti Christ. I know there are such christians around today that do this.

Dude, I've been an atheist all my life, and I have to tell you, from a secular perspective, things aren't hopeless. I see a world that is full to brimming with hope, and the best part is, it's human hope, driven by the passion and intellect and kindness of the people I can go out and meet anytime I like. It's hope with real world consequences, and it's so much more meaningful because it comes from me, and I don't have to abdicate credit for it to anything else.

The idea you have that everything is hopeless without god is a wrong one, enforced upon you by the religion you subscribe to to make you afraid of ever questioning or leaving it. There is no ultimate justice, but that doesn't mean there's no hope. Take it from a pure atheist perspective that literally can't imagine how you've managed to convince yourself of your god; this world is just as wonderful without him.

3. Yeah we're living it.

Again, this is solely something you've been convinced of by your religion in order to instill in-group/out-group thinking onto you. It's quite peaceful, for me.

No it isn't. You can and do (just like any human) put yourself through hell most days. This is you pulling yourself apart from God and his desire for you to be fulfilled and happy.

"God" is not synonymous with "happiness." I can be, and I am, happy without god, because the world around me is bursting with awesome shit.

Part of that hell is you unable to forgive where God can forgive anything. What I and Christians believe that you can't, is that justice prevails. Hitler (/insert person with a lot of bad acts to forgive here) will pay his dues just like anyone else. We believe in a posthumous judge where you're limited to the injustice of life served out in a persons lifetime. Hitler might have pretty much got away with it, and many people might feel that justice wasn't served.

Except that's not exactly true, is it? You've got a posthumous judge that, according to you, can "forgive anything," so long as you repent. Not repent to the people you've harmed, but to god. So, Hitler could very well be in heaven, while guys like me will be going to hell simply because we won't believe without evidence.

There's no justice here. Just a lord looking for the correct bunch of sycophants.

So what is messed up? Ickle you who just rejects good and chooses to be good and bad, and gets off scott free just like Hitler who was pretty twisted and did some horendous stuff? This is your reality. Pretty dire isn't it?

That's your perspective: do whatever you want, beg forgiveness from someone not even connected with the harm you've caused, be rewarded forever. Who is getting off scot free again?

I'd also point out that Hitler died in ruin with the remains of his empire toppling around him, in ignominy, to be forever remembered as one of the worst villains in history, I wouldn't exactly say he got off scot free.

I would also suggest that eternal torture is not justice because there's no possible crime that might justify it. We live in a finite universe, and no matter how much one does it will by definition be finite, while hell is not. Every part of your "justice" system is rotten.

1. false assumption on your part there.
"Innocent like children" does not equal "all children are innocent".
Only a being capable of knowing the future could know if a child, or all of a persons decendants, turns out to be unforgivably (sic) evil right?

Are you in the habit of punishing people for things they haven't done yet, Frodo? Or of punishing the descendants for the crimes of their parents? This is your justice?

2. Jesus existed before time as God according to John. The divine revelation was acted out as it was destined to. Amid that process God appeared differently, but all the time God was unchanging.

Except that god did change, didn't he? I mean, from the old testament bastard to the new testament peace-and-love kind of guy? And changed to Jesus too, if we're having this conversation...

[Mystical]

There is no knowledge imparted anywhere whatsoever on this forum or anywhere else that I have found that even begins to refute what I believe. I'm still searching, and if you find anything let me know and I'll check it out.

Well of course I'd love to help you out with that, but you see you don't state why the points made on this forum aren't valid to you.. Like you have some big secret you won't impart on all of us. But in the end, fr0d0, it's your binding to faith that keeps you where you're at. Your fear that without it, hopelessness prevails and darkness reigns, and you're afraid of where you're morality will be based because of your past. I'd say let go of your past, and realize who you are now is far more pertinent, but then..You don't want to hear what I have to say do you? You don't give me any benefit of doubt whatsoever, really. And I don't doubt that anything presented to you will be falsified and a version of bastardization to you. I'm just talking to talk at this point, aren't I? Or are you not hopeless?

I'm not fighting you here on that fr0d0, believe what you want, so long as it's true. Just don't tell me I'm going to hell like Godschild does, that's rude. And for gods sakes educate your children unlike that I received. Evolution is real. It is. No question, anymore. Prayer was not taken out of schools: it was just limited from being enforced by those in authority. Don't vote in assholes who let their religious dogma dictate how they legislate eVeryone's lives. Teach those kids how to use their own brains, hmmm? To look at both sides of the story not just one.

Future hell is of little interest to me. I'm interested in now, and what stops me from functioning. I guess you are too. Hate preaching = anti Christ. From what I've seen of GodsChild I don't think he/she's guilty of that. Are we talking hatred of dogma here? Is it the words you object to? I guess from you're history that you'd have a lot of baggage attached to the dogma, which GodsChild and I wouldn't recognise.

I don't know where you get the word hate from anywhere in my quote fr0d0. Hatred of dogma? I don't hate your religion, I dislike the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from the words in your bible, and the social implications of the bias it teaches. I think you've seen me say things like, "Fuck god," and such which is really me breaking free from the suppressive thoughts I'd been taught my entire life.
[/quote]

Evolution is real. Absolutely. No question. Nothing anti Christian about that.

I thought you believed in Adam and Eve though?

Prayer cannot be enforced. Belief is not belief if it's forced/ Choice cannot be choice if there is no choice. Belief in God cannot be a choice if you're not given the choice to believe or not.

The act of prayer can be imposed, fr0d0. Even I remember as a kid sitting in the auditorium during a mandatory pep rally, with all of my schools' heads bowed at the cusp of a V.I.P. basketball game, wondering just what those goth kids must be thinking at this point?

Let children use their own brains. Don't brainwash them with any biggotted information... atheist, Christian, whatever. Let them think for themselves.

You know, when I do have children fr0d0, fiction will be fiction and fact will be fact. I highly doubt they'd decide that the Bible was anything worth fighting for or dying for, since I will let them make their own minds up on things.
I live with my niece, who said to me the other night, "I pray my prayer every night "as I lay me down to sleep, I pray my lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray my lord my soul to take."
As fucked up as it was for me to hear a seven year old say that, I didn't say anything to refute her beliefs. I actually told her she could just talk to god during her prayers, and tell him what's on her mind or what's troubling her. Not because I believe she should be talking to nothingness, but because if she's going to talk to nothingness she might as well work out her life problems while she's at it and not focus on death.

Why must there be justice you say? The cause of wars is the need to redress balance > enact justice. With christianity (I only speak for my own faith) there is a solution to redress balance and stop wars: that only God can be fully just. That God enacts justice posthumously.

You're right fr0d0, justice is not found on this earth. Pure justice is beyond humanities' capabilities right now for the mere fact that we let our emotions and beliefs dictate our balance of true justice. Humans lie, cheat, and do a million other things that thwart justice. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek it, and it doesn't mean it's impossible to overcome them because humans can also be honest, true, and way smarter than those who are not.
Read any history book and you'll see that any form of religion has proved to be the ultimate injustice, and so rooted in people's psyche that they cannot allow their decisions to be neutrally beneficial for all of mankind, with it rooted in their world-view.
I don't believe you're wrong in your beliefs, fr0d0. I think you're limited by them and you limit the world around you, so naturally I want you freed of that. You on the other hand, believe I'm going to hell.

Now leaving that behind: you have reason for wars and suffering. you have people abusing power, abusing religion to that end, and bringing suffering to us all.

Lets reword that correctly, you have no reason for wars, you just have mainly religious people abusing power and abusing other people to that end, bringing suffering to us all.

Without forgiveness. Without what our civilisation calls "civilised": from (derived and justified though) our Christian heritage, you have utter hopelessness.

Surely I'm not the first person to ask you what justice was considered to be, before Christian god came on the scene?There’s never been a fixed standard for decent behavior. It varies over time and from one culture to another, and assuming you believe in evolution as you do: well then you must realize that religion is based on morality and morality has its' root in social structure and instincts.

Next, Consider rules you make for children. If the reason for them is understood at some point, the children no longer need them. Like, "Stay away from the pool." When the kids become old enough (Conscious enough) to realize that they can fall in and not get out, and that it's highly unpleasant to get water in their nose and mouth--then they'll get wise, and the rules become unnecessary to them.
They didn't need you to tell them that god doesn't want them near the pool, to realize that naturally it can be harmful for them and the reason for the rule is no longer needed because they learned the lesson.

Elanor Roosevelt: "When will our consciences grow so tender that we will act to prevent human misery rather than avenge it?"

You were subject to crazy, self defeating and therefore absolutely anti God beliefs. Yes I would imagine that a neutral view is far healthier for you. It is clearly inferior to a world view that makes peace rationally justifiable.

In your definition of anti-god: then you really must be one of the only Christians who aren't anti god.

Hello Everyone,

Please pray for me. I have been attacked by evil entities a few days go (I am not joking, a priest at a local Benedictine Monastery agreed with me) after I told him about strange sightings and noises in my room, and also about something unseen which physically attacked me. Over the last year I have been struggling with one sin, and I believe that this struggle and the events that happened a few days ago are related.

I fell into this sin again (after being constantly tempted for 11 hours). I intend to confess this to the same priest at the monastery on saturday, at 3 pm. He is the only priest within a 21 mile radius of my area, who will be available (he has an office, and sees people from 3-5 pm, and hundreds of people line up to see him).

Please pray that I get an oppurtunity to confess to him on saturday around 3pm, and also that I be safe and in faith until then.

Thank you,
Kieron

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answer:

Pray this as I pray with you.....

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

In our fight against the forces of Satan, help us O Lord Jesus.
Lord Jesus, we trust in you.

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Frodo: Tell me how I misinterpreted these verses in any way, in giving my full faith both physically, mentally, and 'spiritually', to him with the faith that he would answer my prayers?

Luke 11:5-13
And I say to you, Ask, and it shall be given you: seek, and you shall find: knock, and it shall be opened to you.

10 For every one that asketh, receiveth; and he that seeketh, findeth; and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened.

11 And which of you, if he ask his father bread, will he give him a stone? or a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent?

12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he reach him a scorpion?

Mark 11:22-24 (Douay Rheims)

22 And Jesus answering, saith to them: Have the faith of God.

23 Amen I say to you, that whosoever shall say to this mountain, Be thou removed and be cast into the sea, and shall not stagger in his heart, but believe, that whatsoever he saith shall be done; it shall be done unto him.

24 Therefore I say unto you, all things, whatsoever you ask when ye pray, believe that you shall receive; and they shall come unto you.
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Re: Victim Souls
If you are a victim soul, that is usually something that is revealed to you. It is not something that you necessarily seek out, or plan to become. All of us in the human condition have a life of woes. Jesus told us so, and this is reason to rejoice that He has sacrificed His own flesh for our salvation. Yet, if you are a baptized Christian, you are part of Christ's mystical body and so, may offer your suffering up to Him for eternal good - just as He offered Himself to the Father for our sake. Think of someone much worse off than yourself, and offer your suffering on their behalf. Many choose those who have various illnesses, or the holy souls suffering in purgatory. Just know that, the more you go outside of yourself, the more purpose there will be to your life, and the happier you will become.

_VanWa, I don't think we should put labels on what you are feeling. Just ask yourself if, in taking on the suffering of others (known or unknown, loved or not), you believe you are helping in their salvation. When you suffer, you are joining in the Passion of Christ. Years and years ago, when I was in school, the nuns always spoke of "offering it up". It is only now that I am beginning to understand what they meant. Try reading the Diary of St. Faustina. If we believe in labels, then yes, she was a "victim soul". She suffered very, very much in her life, both physically and spiritually, but her job was to promote the Lord's Divine Mercy, which she did then, and still does in heaven. St. Faustina was constantly asking Jesus to let her suffer so that souls would obtain His Mercy. Jesus let her know that many were saved because of her prayers and offerings. As a result, her life was filled with joy because she fulfilled God's divine will. Personally, I feel that joining your pain with that of Jesus to save souls is exceedingly virtuous, and is a result of a very special grace given to you from the Father. Listen to that interior voice.
________________________________________________

Public Poll:

1. It is human fault that has brought suffering into the world.

Agree, although behind that is the devil.

2. God uses everything, even suffering, to call people back to God.
God uses everything, even suffering, to call people back to God. Agree


3. Jesus was sent to Earth to absorb the sins of humans and therefore free from sin those who accepted his divinity.
Agree

4. The consequences of suffering from the original sin by Adam and Eve have been passed down to humankind.
Agree

5. Evil and suffering allows room for spiritual growth and development.
agree, but it also can lead to bitterness and resentment.

6. A life filled with suffering is useful if it causes the person to turn to God and accept divine grace.
agreee

7. Evil is the absence of good and not the existence of bad.
Strongly disagree - Evil involves deliberate intelligence and will - it is not simply the absence of good.

8. By having faith in God, one will find inner peace that will overshadow the evil in the world
Agree, but it's hard to find. I'd use "may find inner peace".

9. Evil is only a temptation
- Strongly disagree - Evil is an intention to destroy another - temptation is simply the entry door for us to act in an evil way.

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On the majority of souls going to hell:

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, impurity, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, acts of selfishness, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God.'

Galatians 5:19-21

'The greater part of men choose to be damned rather than to love Almighty God.'

'Christ's flock is called "little" (Luke 12:32) in comparison with the greater number of the reprobates.'

St. Thomas Aquinas, Doctor of the Church

'Notwithstanding assurances that God did not create any man for Hell, and that He wishes all men to be saved, it remains equally true that only few will be saved; that only few will go to Heaven; and that the greater part of mankind will be lost forever.'

We can rest certain that everyone who goes to Hell truly deserves to go there.

Therefore, if we are among those who go to Heaven, we will be perfectly content, no matter who did not go to Heaven whom we knew, however close to us. All the tears will be wiped from our eyes. We will embrace God's will. We should strive to embrace God's will in this life.

All the good that was in a person who goes to Hell was from God, not the person truly. And now that person is all evil, forever, and and punished for it, and this is truly justice, which is a good.

These days there's especially a temptation to make sentiment our religion. So that however we feel must be what the truth is. But that is not how the truth is determined. If we tell people what makes them happy, rather than what is true, we have made a serious mistake, and this is a very great problem in apologetics.

We must try to console people's feelings and lead them to feeling correctly about matters, but we must not do so at the expense of the truth. What is true is what makes us truly happy overall in the end, though we cannot see all that is behind it, we trust in God.

In conclusion, I'm not the only Christian out there that believed this shit Fr0d0.

By what logic are you saying that theism should be wiped out "one theist at a time"? Suddenly you appear to be a bigot.

How did I say theism should be wiped out one theist at a time? I said hope lies in the future starting with one theist (deconversion) at a time. Your interpretation of this as being anything other than what it is, labels you not me.

2. I ask because unlike you many do believe Christ is coming, and they live their lives like tomorrow he may come. So they don't prepare for the future, they live for just today. Again, you may not care when or watch the world's goings on like the it's the End of Times, but many do. And I did grow up praying every night that Jesus come release us from the torment of this earth. It's depressive, and it made me unhappy.

What you are saying those people are doing there is anti Christ and anti God. This is quite clear. I wish you could see that.

Here's a good roundabout of the reasonings that lead me to live life not for myself, to love others more than myself, to give everything of myself, and to want nothing for myself. How was I an anti-Christian, fr0d0?

---

Romans 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

This verse provides the primary key to how to be unified: We must sacrifice ourselves for one another. Sacrifice is the essence of godly love. If we are not willing to sacrifice, we are not showing love. It is as plain as that. The attitude of godly love—being willing to sacrifice—must be the underlying attitude as we interact with each other. "Service" is the last word in the verse, and sacrifice is our reasonable, logical, rational, spiritual service. It is the way we minister to one another and exhibit godly love.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuse...seID/28247

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Romans 12:14 Bless them which persecute you: bless, and curse not.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matthew 16:24-25
He tells us to deny ourselves. This means we must disown and renounce ourselves and subjugate everything—all our works, interests, and enjoyments—to the standards set by God. Paul commands us to bring under our control every thought that opposes God and His way (II Corinthians 10:5).

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Philippians 4:6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God.

Philippians 4:19 But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand.

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The evil is being proliferated by people going against what the bible and theism states. Wether in the name of theism or atheism, or anything in between.

Moving towards a future without hope is not my idea of a good idea. You might think so but I don't think you've considered any alternative. How does a world without justice ever come to terms with that and live peacefully together? How do you stop human nature? I see no answers from you.

Human nature cannot be stopped. The world cannot be perfect, nor is justice truly even possible. We can only try to do our best to make life the best. How is this not an answer to you when it's the same thoughts of your bible? I propose that without religion, that is the best way to attain peace between men. Religion has had many, many faces and many many wrongs committed in its' name. Without leaving that thinking we cannot move forward because in essence, anyone with religion holds automatic grudges (or bias).

Yeah... you aren't talking about a past good here. You're talking about a past lived anti God.

I don't think you want to admit that I read the same damn book you did, and lived a life slightly more literal than you did. Plain and simple.

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences.

No. It's quite typically self imposed.

Is that not what I said? I feel like I'm speaking to an empty theatre. We self impose hells. But why do we do that??? CAUSED BY EXTERNAL INFLUENCES AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES.
What's the discourse here? I'm confused as to why you're even arguing me on this, besides the mere fact that you must disagree with everything I say because I am so "anti Christ".

The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god.

And you think this is pro Christ?!? Wow.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . " (Romans 1:18)

Does this verse not vindicate you in your heart? If you lost someone you loved to anothers' hand, would you not hold these words dear in order to drop your anger and hatred for that person? In your religion, one must give god the responsibility for the justification of wrongs, in order to 'heal' and forgive.

I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me.

The love of Christ in you inspired you to neglect your fellow man. And this is pro Christ?? Wow

No. I was made weak and helpless, in my faith that some non-existent being would take care of the matters in his own way, not of this earth.

I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be.

Your love of christ and justive lead you to leave the world to it's evil ways? Wow.

No, my bible lead me to believe I'm fighting a losing battle no matter what against a force I can never overcome, and that I should put my trust in god allmighty and follow him, and he'd show me the way to go. I gave up my will for his will. Problem is, he has no will; he doesn't exist.

There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better.

The war is being won all of the time in Christianity. There is the benefit right now in changing those things which rob us of life, and the hope of justice which enables us to logically justify forgiveness, and avoid conflict.

Well that would be a nice way to look at it, I'll give you props for that. Your brethren, on the other hand, see it as I did.

There's just today, and tomorrow hopefully, and the rest of my life and that of my childrens lives and their childrens lives to fight for without leaning on the prospect that those who do wrong will be charged with eternal torment later so I need not do anything about it.

Well you escaped from that evil. Thank God.

Yes, thank goodness I don't have faith in an infinite judgement for those on this earth who commit finite sins against me.

No more do I live with a defeated attitude towards changing my circumstances in the delusion that I'm fighting a demonic force that's bound to keep me suppressed in this lifetime. I feel entitled to live this life fighting for a place in it just like everyone else, and it's liberating. My quality of life has improved.

I'm waiting from one reason from you to support your professed past belief in Christ, because all I'm seeing is the opposite. You keep coming out with this bile, and then attributing it to something beautiful, as men always do.

Broken record?

I think about my tormentors, and I feel bad for them because they too endured some pretty rough shit for having lived this life. We all have a path to take, they took the wrong way and I am not going to let the ripple of their actions continue within me in this life, anymore. I brush off what they did quite easily now and I move on. I barely think about it anymore. And I definitely don't hold in my mind this belief that they'll be tormented in the afterlife for what they did, that's sadistic quite honestly.

Well yeah, they tortured themselves as well as committing such abominations to others. You no longer abuse others, and you've stopped abusing yourself.

You think Christians want people to suffer in the afterlife? You have some pretty screwed up ideas. I honestly find it hard to comprehend such ignorance of the basic concepts when you also seemingly profess a Christian past. Everything you've said conveys the opposite. I don't care what label you put on it. All of that is anti Christ. No question about it.

Some do, yeah. Vindictive Christians, surely. Imperfect Christians. Or is Christianity synonymous with perfectionism in your eyes?
Even those like you who dont want people to suffer in the afterlife are complacent in their belief in god by accepting that he does this to people, so yeah. You're just as much to blame as he is. If you hope that he's not going to do that to people, I'd say that's your bad because god made clear in the bible what he's going to do. And he never put an 'out' there, it's plain as day. Infinite torment for finite actions. HELL is real to you, remember?

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.

People abusing good things, as people do. We should abolish anything good by that rationale then?

Are you really asking an athiest to agree that religion is good and thus use that as rationale for abolishing anything good because humans fuck shit up?
Wow.

Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

Nutjobs are nutjobs. What are you going to do about that?

Topple down the glass house they live in so they can see the truth. Then, if they still insist on being harmful: respond accordingly with social justice.

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

What you call ignorant every Christian (trinitarian) on here is telling you is mistaken. Just who is it you're taking as authority here?

I didn't call you or every trinitarian on here ignorant. I asked if you are playing ignorant to the fact that I at one time, would have been happily welcomed in your brethrens' arms as a true Christian.

No one here is adopting that evil you call a christian past. Maybe we could petition Fred Phelps to come and vouch for you?

God it takes forever to respond to you. Can we just paraphrase here on out rather than blow by blow responses?

Please support your assertion that I've bastardised biblical text in any way.

I do that at every opportunity. you never seem to continue those discussions though.

Show me where, or revisit a few if you can remember. I'm pretty good at addressing everything presented to me, thanks.

Wrong. Your god knows all possibilities so surely he must know that we are not damned automatically. If we were, and he's willing to prevent that damned life by ripping it out of the womb without giving it a choice: then he'd be wrong in doing so, for supposition states that he wishes to give us free will to choose him or to reject him. If he kills babies out of the womb who have not been able to sin: then he cannot judge them based on future sins that they never committed and still be a Just god. He'd have to send them straight to heaven, and hence over-ride his purpose of giving those spirits free willed choice.

If God knows all of time, then he knows what every life does before it begins. You are not damned automatically... but the choices you make are already known to him. Therefore he is not wrong, and your objection fails.

No, if god knows our destiny before we make our choices: then he's a dick for creating a majority to go to hell for a minority to be his companions. If god knows what we will choose before we choose it, then he's cruel for even creating beings knowing they'll be going to hell. Plus, I thought we were talking about god doing pre-mptive strikes on unborn babies.

So you believe in more than one god?

No silly. God is 3 persons.

And I'm the silly one. Mmmkkk

[Godscreated]

When one is born into this world one did not make the choice to come into the world. Actually the mother of the one born made the choice or did she, those who are pro-choice would say so and those who are pro-life would say so. Yes even pro-lifers believe women have choice, they fight against it because they think they are making a wrong choice and should not have the choice. I am not trying to go off in a different direction here, so let's not go there. The OP is about free will, so what I would like to know is this, take into consideration what was stated above, who is left to say their is no choice. Everyone I know is on one side of this debate or the other side, so no one is left out on the matter of free will.

[Severan]

Oh, but the thought that you have a brain is a concept. People who have strokes and brain injuries get conceptual thinking shut down. Concepts are only possible because of the brain. So what I should be saying is "Do you not have consciousness because you didn't choose to?"

[fr0d0]

Paraphrase or butcher as you like Missy C. I'll not object

Well of course I'd love to help you out with that, but you see you don't state why the points made on this forum aren't valid to you..

Erm... yes I do.. every time you make one.. actually: every time I respond to your posts I point it out to you.

Your fear that without it, hopelessness prevails and darkness reigns, and you're afraid of where you're morality will be based because of your past. I'd say let go of your past, and realize who you are now is far more pertinent, but then..You don't want to hear what I have to say do you?

Funny you should think that the love and positivity I feel translates fear of losing that Oh yeah that's what motivates me.. sure! Scared to death!! *trembles*

I know where your morality is based, yeah. You've confirmed it in your own words. The world is a sucky place and realists just get on with it. I knows that sure enough. --- What I can't seem to get you to appreciate is that world views alter that.

Take 2 people. Joy understands the world to be good. Having a positive outcome and where bad stuff never wins. Damien understands that the world isn't fair. It's neither good or bad. Sometimes bad stuff wins.

Joy plays up to her world view. She has good reason to be good to everyone, because in her reality that's always the result. No matter what.

Damien has no real motive to to be good. To him justice is that everyone gets their fair share of crap. If someone's winning that's bad. If someone's losing that's bad. If he (or anyone else) gets to the end of it neither overly happy nor overly sad... he will think of that as success.

You don't give me any benefit of doubt whatsoever, really. And I don't doubt that anything presented to you will be falsified and a version of bastardization to you. I'm just talking to talk at this point, aren't I? Or are you not hopeless?

Well I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were actually a christian with good reason at some point in the past. Despite you not providing a single bit of evidence of that yet.

You certainly can't seem to accept that the really bad stuff you're relating has anything to do with Christianity, apart from what Christians do when they fail as Christians.

If you base your anti Christianity on what people do against christ, then you have no real argument against Christ. Is that fair?

I don't know where you get the word hate from anywhere in my quote fr0d0. Hatred of dogma? I don't hate your religion, I dislike the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from the words in your bible, and the social implications of the bias it teaches. I think you've seen me say things like, "Fuck god," and such which is really me breaking free from the suppressive thoughts I'd been taught my entire life.

Dogma isn't religion. Dogma are the cliche's and common words used in established practice. God, Christ, Sin, Evil, Hell > I'm saying: all have negative conotations for you that would prevent you seeing past those negative connotations when people use them in conversation. Christians here only have to speak to have the dogma dragged out and applied over what they're saying. What then gets addressed is the hated word rather than the point of the conversation.

Lemme clue you in: I hate religion. I hate the inevitable conclusions that get drawn from words in the Xtian bible. I hate a lot of christians a lot of the time. And I'm talking justified hate here and not me being wrong myself. I'd expect other people to hate it in me too. Why not.

I also hate the Christianity that you were exposed too. that crap needs nuking for sure. I'm with you there. Say a time and I'll be there with the machine gun.

Evolution is real. Absolutely. No question. Nothing anti Christian about that.

I thought you believed in Adam and Eve though?

What like I believe there really was a tortoise and a hare you mean? Yeah I believe that stuffs. Mighty tortoise was the forerunner of all tortoises everywhere. Before that time tortoises were laughed at as losers. No more haha no more!

Prayer cannot be enforced. Belief is not belief if it's forced/ Choice cannot be choice if there is no choice. Belief in God cannot be a choice if you're not given the choice to believe or not.

The act of prayer can be imposed, fr0d0. Even I remember as a kid sitting in the auditorium during a mandatory pep rally, with all of my schools' heads bowed at the cusp of a V.I.P. basketball game, wondering just what those goth kids must be thinking at this point?

You missed the point. Yeah, it can be enforced: but those being forced are not praying. They're making noises with their mouths. Christianity, minus the choice, isn't christianity. A point made by an awesome Irish monk to the Pope of the time. The Pope had him put to death for saying it.

You know, when I do have children fr0d0, fiction will be fiction and fact will be fact. I highly doubt they'd decide that the Bible was anything worth fighting for or dying for, since I will let them make their own minds up on things.

Well I'm glad you're not biased ONE WAY OR THE OTHER! OOPS!

I live with my niece, who said to me the other night, "I pray my prayer every night "as I lay me down to sleep, I pray my lord my soul to keep, if I should die before I wake, I pray my lord my soul to take."
As fucked up as it was for me to hear a seven year old say that, I didn't say anything to refute her beliefs. I actually told her she could just talk to god during her prayers, and tell him what's on her mind or what's troubling her. Not because I believe she should be talking to nothingness, but because if she's going to talk to nothingness she might as well work out her life problems while she's at it and not focus on death.

To God that stuff is white noise. To us it's white noise going out. I really don't get all of that regurgitated stuff. I mean.. it's a throw back from the priests being the only ones intelligent enough to understand the bible. The rest of us schmucks need to be told what to think We don't have the capacity after all. I bet you can guess where I place that on the Christ - Anti Christ scale

You're right fr0d0, justice is not found on this earth. Pure justice is beyond humanities' capabilities right now for the mere fact that we let our emotions and beliefs dictate our balance of true justice.

So you think in some fantasy future you're going to sort this out?

Read any history book and you'll see that any form of religion has proved to be the ultimate injustice, and so rooted in people's psyche that they cannot allow their decisions to be neutrally beneficial for all of mankind, with it rooted in their world-view.

If you have extreme good then that will always attract extreme bad. That stuff is way tooo tempting for a power seeking megalomaniac not to abuse. It's why priests figure so highly in most societies... the ruling class knows this is the best way to control people. there is no better way to sucker the masses.

I don't believe you're wrong in your beliefs, fr0d0. I think you're limited by them and you limit the world around you, so naturally I want you freed of that. You on the other hand, believe I'm going to hell.

No I believe you're in hell now. Just like me sometimes.

That's the point of the Adam and Eve story: Humans are fallable. You might not think that. That's ok. If you do, then you understand what it means to be living hell.

You believe I'm wrong because I'm scared the fantastic stuff I understan might be as crap as your reality? Explain that to me again. (no sarcasm intended here - it sounds like it, but I didn't mean it)

Without forgiveness. Without what our civilisation calls "civilised": from (derived and justified though) our Christian heritage, you have utter hopelessness.

Surely I'm not the first person to ask you what justice was considered to be, before Christian god came on the scene?There’s never been a fixed standard for decent behavior. It varies over time and from one culture to another

Nopety nope nope. What you've just described is secular motrality. It's what the Germans had when it was ok to kill Jews, and ok to think of black people as sub human, so you could experiment on them like you might an animal.

There is justice sans God everywhere. Cutting off hands, Killing even... is all justice to someone. To me though that justice is 'hopeless' justice. It assumes unfairness. It assumes that a person cannot change. It's barbaric. Start talking, as I'm sure you're tempted to about how justice isn't barbaric, and you mimic the Christian model.

, and assuming you believe in evolution as you do: well then you must realize that religion is based on morality and morality has its' root in social structure and instincts.

Like I said, I assume you missed it, this is what we call an inbuilt spark in all humans of God's goodness. More dogma for you

Next, Consider rules you make for children. If the reason for them is understood at some point, the children no longer need them. Like, "Stay away from the pool." When the kids become old enough (Conscious enough) to realize that they can fall in and not get out, and that it's highly unpleasant to get water in their nose and mouth--then they'll get wise, and the rules become unnecessary to them.
They didn't need you to tell them that god doesn't want them near the pool, to realize that naturally it can be harmful for them and the reason for the rule is no longer needed because they learned the lesson.

To you Gods rules are oppressive. To me Gods rules are liberating.

When I became a Christian I no longer felt afraid of the police. Weird huh. I think that's it though... I am inspired to be good. If I was forced that would be worthless... again not a choice. Not something I thought about. Someone else's idea that I'm mindlessly going along with.

Yeah there are millions of Christians who are mindless. If they're totally mindless then they aren't really following christ are they?

You were subject to crazy, self defeating and therefore absolutely anti God beliefs. Yes I would imagine that a neutral view is far healthier for you. It is clearly inferior to a world view that makes peace rationally justifiable.

In your definition of anti-god: then you really must be one of the only Christians who aren't anti god.

That's a very pessimistic view. I think that's true for you and your experience. In your society I think it's very different to mine. My society has less than 6% Christians. Yours the vast majority I understand. But here's you not knowing just one.

Frodo: Tell me how I misinterpreted these verses in any way, in giving my full faith both physically, mentally, and 'spiritually', to him with the faith that he would answer my prayers?

In conclusion, I'm not the only Christian out there that believed this shit Fr0d0.

Sorry C there's just too much there to be able to comment. It's BS to me but then that's not like anything that I do. I couldn't say what that was on the religious scale. I wouldn't want to without understanding it better. Gimme something simpler and I'll give it a go.

By what logic are you saying that theism should be wiped out "one theist at a time"? Suddenly you appear to be a bigot.

How did I say theism should be wiped out one theist at a time? I said hope lies in the future starting with one theist (deconversion) at a time. Your interpretation of this as being anything other than what it is, labels you not me.

You're saying hope lies in the demise of my belief. You don't understand my belief, and you want rid of it. I understand what it is to lack faith. I understand the inferiority of it. I absolutley don't wish it any harm. With variety of expression comes discovery. Limiting discovery limits life. and I'm against that. It appears that you are not.

Here's a good roundabout of the reasonings that lead me to live life not for myself, to love others more than myself, to give everything of myself, and to want nothing for myself. How was I an anti-Christian, fr0d0?
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It's anti Christian because you can't love others unless you love yourself first. Unless you can understand your worth. Unless you can appreciate that you're beautiful as you are, you have no hope of helping anyone else. All you're going to do is drag them down to your level. You have to reflect the glory of God in you. What I get from you isn't selflessness. What I get is self punishment. Like you want to be God and take everyone else's punishment. You have a Jesus complex.

[quote=frodo]
Yeah... you aren't talking about a past good here. You're talking about a past lived anti God.

I don't think you want to admit that I read the same damn book you did, and lived a life slightly more literal than you did. Plain and simple.

You were better than me. Check.

Literal. Check.

Severely misguided. Check. (Oops I said that out loud didn't I? )

Of course we can all self-impose hells upon ourselves, it's a human right and quite typically is caused by external influences and traumatic experiences.

No. It's quite typically self imposed.

Is that not what I said? I feel like I'm speaking to an empty theatre. We self impose hells. But why do we do that??? CAUSED BY EXTERNAL INFLUENCES AND TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCES.
What's the discourse here? I'm confused as to why you're even arguing me on this, besides the mere fact that you must disagree with everything I say because I am so "anti Christ".

You're not anti Christ. What I've seen you relate is anti Christ.

You missed my meaning. I said self imposed, and you turned the blame onto outside influences. I say SELF imposed.

The difference is: and pay attention--when I now think about the iniquities done upon me by men: I don't live life with a burning flame of hope and satisfaction that justice will be served upon them in death by the all mighty god.

And you think this is pro Christ?!? Wow.

"The wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men . . . " (Romans 1:18)

Does this verse not vindicate you in your heart? If you lost someone you loved to anothers' hand, would you not hold these words dear in order to drop your anger and hatred for that person? In your religion, one must give god the responsibility for the justification of wrongs, in order to 'heal' and forgive.

I get no satisfaction in the punishment of others, because I don't know why they do what they do. Therefore I cannot judge them. My animal instinct wants revenge.

To seek revenge of any sort, by God or any other mechanism, is life taking from me. If I can't release myself from that then I become a victim of it. Do you understand how that's different?

I don't get horrifically upset when I see similar issues go on around me, I have the strength to fight for the victims of those situations rather than cowering behind the belief that god is greater than me.

The love of Christ in you inspired you to neglect your fellow man. And this is pro Christ?? Wow

No. I was made weak and helpless, in my faith that some non-existent being would take care of the matters in his own way, not of this earth.

Then that was cowardly and you being innefective for God, when you could achieve a lot better... by having the inspiration of a better world view. You failed God where now you know how to do better. you weren't inspired by good. You were incapacitated by fear/ hatred/ guilt... all of these things are anti life. Anti God and anti Christ. I don't care what the hell you professed. I don't care what I profess. If I am guilty of not living then I know that I'm acting against good. I can't deny that.

I'm now saved from opting to disregard the current state of things under the blanket belief that what is, is and will always be.

Your love of christ and justive lead you to leave the world to it's evil ways? Wow.

No, my bible lead me to believe I'm fighting a losing battle no matter what against a force I can never overcome, and that I should put my trust in god allmighty and follow him, and he'd show me the way to go. I gave up my will for his will. Problem is, he has no will; he doesn't exist.

With God the force is already overcome. You are gifted to live in freedom from guilt. To be under a force is to be against God.

There's no unwinnable war that I'm fighting in my mind anymore--there's just life, and those in it, and a strong will to change it for the better.

The war is being won all of the time in Christianity. There is the benefit right now in changing those things which rob us of life, and the hope of justice which enables us to logically justify forgiveness, and avoid conflict.

Well that would be a nice way to look at it, I'll give you props for that. Your brethren, on the other hand, see it as I did.

My 'brethren' are as capable of evil as anyone. Xtianity is an aim. Not a goal. There's no magic pass. Every moment involves choices. you choose which way to go... good or bad. Doesn't matter which badge you're wearing. You may have decided to believe in something. That never stops you from acting in either way.

Yes, thank goodness I don't have faith in an infinite judgement for those on this earth who commit finite sins against me.

Not infinite. Go check.

Yes. Thank goodness you have no reason to think well of people. to be inspired to love instead of hate.

I'm waiting from one reason from you to support your professed past belief in Christ, because all I'm seeing is the opposite. You keep coming out with this bile, and then attributing it to something beautiful, as men always do.

Broken record?

Make it stop!!!

Some do, yeah. Vindictive Christians, surely. Imperfect Christians. Or is Christianity synonymous with perfectionism in your eyes?
Even those like you who dont want people to suffer in the afterlife are complacent in their belief in god by accepting that he does this to people, so yeah. You're just as much to blame as he is. If you hope that he's not going to do that to people, I'd say that's your bad because god made clear in the bible what he's going to do. And he never put an 'out' there, it's plain as day. Infinite torment for finite actions. HELL is real to you, remember?

Hell is real. It's right here and right now. Dogma.

Infinite: no.

Justice? Yeah I believe that it's served. Love wins. Love triumphs over evil/ is the dominant force. Hatred is the opposite of what I feel. Love for everyone in their true state. Minus the hurt that causes them to suffer.

The only dire prospect for me in this scenario is knowing that in the future, someone with the same religious-infused dogma as Hitler may actually succeed at their endeavors.

People abusing good things, as people do. We should abolish anything good by that rationale then?

Are you really asking an athiest to agree that religion is good and thus use that as rationale for abolishing anything good because humans fuck shit up?
Wow.

No I'm asking you if your logic follows. If good encourages bad, should we abolish good so that we also don't get bad.

Why did I ask about the End of Times? Because there are right now people who believe that an anti-christ will reign free on all of earth, taking it over. They live in fear but more importantly: there's nutjobs out there making fiction a reality. There's an earth-bound religious war happening based on these beliefs.

Nutjobs are nutjobs. What are you going to do about that?

Topple down the glass house they live in so they can see the truth. Then, if they still insist on being harmful: respond accordingly with social justice.

Yep lets take the tanks. Nothing wrong with that. I'm with you. Social justice though.... what are we gonna do? Gas them? Experiment on them a little?

Why are you so bound to disown me from your beliefs? Is it frightening to see the truth or are you just playing ignorant?

What you call ignorant every Christian (trinitarian) on here is telling you is mistaken. Just who is it you're taking as authority here?

I didn't call you or every trinitarian on here ignorant. I asked if you are playing ignorant to the fact that I at one time, would have been happily welcomed in your brethrens' arms as a true Christian.

I don't disown you at all. I disown the evil acts you attribute to Christianity. One at a time, as I see them. I said that I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt. I still am, despite no evidence to the contrary. Yet.

[Gabriel Syme]

God's omnipotence and God's omniscience contradict the possibility of free will since every birth would have a known path.

Hi FKHansen

I disagree that God being omniscient means free will does not exist.

The knowledge of what choice will be made in a situation is not what resolves the choice; that alone comes from the persons ability to choose.

For example, I know that if I buy my wife a box of chocolates, she will eat too many of them at once and so make herself feel slightly sick.

However, her action is not caused my knowledge, or in any way related to it. Her action it is only caused by her own choice. My knowledge and her choice are completely independent.

(I am not claiming to be omniscient personally, only giving an analogy lol).

[Anomalocaris]

So where is her free will? she is free to choose to not eat so long as she would not make such a choice?

It would take a christian to think this is free.

[Ryantology]

If you buy her the chocolates knowing she will overeat and make herself sick, then you bear some of the responsibility for it happening. Responsibility doesn't even hinge on foreknowledge. If you hand a child a loaded pistol to take to school, and your child shoots and kills someone, who is to blame? The child, or the adult who should have known better?

If God gave man free will, then he is at least partly responsible for whatever we do with it. If God made man capable of committing sin (indeed, made man incapable of not sinning), then the resulting sin is more his fault than the person's. If God tests Adam and Eve's ability to determine good from evil without beforehand giving them the capacity to know what good and evil is (in fact, the whole point was that they DON'T find out), is it their fault they disobeyed (even ignoring the fact that they were said to be tricked into doing it)? Absolutely not.

God cannot be good or righteous if his justice is arbitrary and unfair, and Genesis 1 proves right off the bat that it totally is. In terms of personality and opinions, God is no different from the priests who claim to speak for him. For some reason, that strikes me as just a little dodgy.