For People Who Think There Was No Historical Jesus

[Confused Ape]

But the whole point here is that Tacitus either says...or is made to say...that in 64 AD...less than 30 years after the supposed crucifixion of the godboy, we are supposed to believe that there are "multitudes" of xtians in Rome. But NO first century Roman writers bother to mention this fact? Sorry. Don't buy it.

How many is a multitude? All the dictionary says is a large number of people. I've seen arguments that there were no more than a few thousand two hundred years later but I haven't found an estimate for how many there were in Nero's day. Maybe Tacitus could have regarded a few hundred as a multitude if he thought that was a few hundred too many.

The point I was making was in reply to

Hardly the vast blood-letting that later xtians contrived

It sounded like you were saying there were only 147 martyrs in the history of Christianity up to Eusebius's day because that's all that were mentioned in his Church history. I added a PS to my last post to say that there were more bodies than names in the Palestinian martyrs account.

We know from Pliny's correspondence that he ran across a group which called itself xtians in Asia Minor c 110 AD. From what he describes they sure as shit do not sound like the later proto-orthodox gang which grew into the child-molesting, money-hungry perverts we have today.

Christians in Pliny's day were nothing like modern Christians. They were too busy being the underdogs to do any blood thirsty persecutions themselves.

Christianity Becomes The State Religion

Theodosius promoted Nicene Trinitarian Christianity within the Empire. On 27 February 380, he declared the "Catholic Church" the only legitimate Imperial religion, ending official state support for the traditional pagan religions and officially ending pagan sacrifice and religious rituals.[12][13]

Rome, the great military power, could now become Rome, the great military religious power and it did.

[cratehorus]

TL;DR

[catfish]

Christianity Becomes The State Religion

Theodosius promoted Nicene Trinitarian Christianity within the Empire. On 27 February 380, he declared the "Catholic Church" the only legitimate Imperial religion, ending official state support for the traditional pagan religions and officially ending pagan sacrifice and religious rituals.[12][13]

Rome, the great military power, could now become Rome, the great military religious power and it did.

Aha! But they kept (or added) all of the pagan rituals, rites and dieties (saints, angels, etc...).
.

[Minimalist]

They were too busy being the underdogs to do any blood thirsty persecutions themselves.

Again....that's the story but what was the reality?

[Minimalist]

but I haven't found an estimate for how many there were in Nero's day.

I suspect none. At least none who would be recognizable as xtians in the 2'd-4th centuries.

[ronedee]

Anecdotal evidence is not proof. Unsubstantiated reports are not proof.

Do unexplained things happen? Yes. A neighbor had his tank flip over and crush part of his skull. The doctors said he might not live long, let along lead a normal life. He walks with a limp and got married and has a baby. Was it prayer? Or was it that the body repaired itself without a supernatural power cursing through him? Some people can see a miricle in a falling raindrop. Others see the atmosphere doing what it does best. Now there is a Jewish tradition that every blade of grass has an angle sitting on it shouting "GROW!", and without them there would be no miraculous growth. I hold that grass is doing what it is supposed to do, and when the impediments are removed, they do very well without angels.

Anecdotal?!

I said: "CONFIRMED"....and by atheistic doctor(s) (more than 2) actually rushing there to disprove God!

Ok, let us sort through, and make sense of your anecdotal reply..... you have faith...eh....think that there is a physical answer for these "unexplained" natural occurring events...you just don't know "exactly" what it is that makes a person with a crushed skull move about and make babies? But it's certainly not supernatural.

Now.... the answer I usually receive from an atheist would be that someone smart enough just hasn't figured it out yet..... Like: the world was flat at one time..... somewhat in the realm with your answer....I guess!

....do you see the irony here though? I'm told by you, and others here that there is "some physical explanation", but you have no proof!

I say there is proof but you can't see it...yet! Is your poetic response to the "unexplained" any better than my religious beliefs? Especially if it's based on what we "think", and not on what is evident to either of us?

So, what is all this really about? FAITH vs REASON

[Minimalist]

Now there is a Jewish tradition that every blade of grass has an angle sitting on it shouting "GROW!"

That's a really stupid tradition.

I'm surprised the catholics haven't latched on to it. Stupid is what they do best.

[Justtristo]

These days I personally subscribe to the view that Jesus started off as a mythical character who later got made into a historical character.

In the same way that there were myths of dragons long before anyone put fossils and the myths together, in the same way that there were myths of cyclops before anyone pointed to a mastodon skull. We weave tales and then delight in the myriad ways we can relate them to our existence in reality. It's not even remotely surprising or unexpected.

Which came first?

The shaman?
Honi?
Honi the Rainmaker?

Which is historical and which is mythical? In this narrative, very much, imho, like the Christ narrative - the name before "Rainmaker" like the name before "Christ" is inconsequential, you can plug in anything you like, because the narrative of the epitaph existed before the narrative of the noun. Supposing you wholeheartedly swallow the notion of some jesus being foretold in prophecy theres simply no way to argue that the narrative didn't precede the "subject" in any case. It doesn't really matter what angle you approach it form, the story came first.

Your argument sounds quite plausible, however as I read the Pauline Epistltes and the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is clear they portray a Jesus who lived and died in the heavenly realms.

[EGross]

I said: "CONFIRMED"....and by atheistic doctor(s) (more than 2) actually rushing there to disprove God!

What I meant by anecdotal was that you did not personally speak to these 2 doctors, and sometimes these stories get reported with details that are lelft out or modified.

But let's say that somebody went into a state of mind, and they believed, and like countless others, partook of the magic waters where they have a wall of crutched hanging on the side where people left them and went running home.

And lets say that the doctors said that they didn't have an answer anymore than someone who spontaneously gets healed from some disease outside of those waters. They did not, one would hope, apply it to a supernatural being nor to the mystical properties of the water. Based on the details available to them, the were unable to provide an answer. They problably said that "we don't know", and the religious person says "God did it, praise the lord!". There is a distinct different in the application of reason here.

My ex-wife got into this program that says that your picture/photo is a reflection of your soul, so send them a picture of yourself, and for $2500 they will put it in an electromagnetic resonance generator to balance your internal elements to make you healthier. They even provided testomonials from people who would attest to the curing powers of having their picture magnitized. And there are people who do get better after spending the $2500 (one of the various reasons we divorced!). Why? Short of having all of the details of their before-and-after, all we are left with are speculations. Maybe God did it through the machine and sent her magic energy to make her feal better. Or maybe it was just her body doing what it can do.

I spent a few years learning magic. While I know the techniques, my patter was always forced. I am not a good performer. But I can go to a magic show and see the trick, and the problem of knowing the trick is that it just isn't as entertaining anymore. The kids in the audience are mezmerized. And some of the adults who watch who have no background in it know that it's a trick, but they just can't figure it out. Some of their ideas as to how it works ("I'll bet he used cold fire") were silly. But they know in their hearts that it isn't real magic, while the kids can sit there and believe that the lady did disappear.

But you are right, being like one of the kids, believing in the magic, is a more entertaining way to go. As to how the magic worked, I don't know.

[Confused Ape]

Aha! But they kept (or added) all of the pagan rituals, rites and dieties (saints, angels, etc...).

They were Christianised, though.

They were too busy being the underdogs to do any blood thirsty persecutions themselves.

Again....that's the story but what was the reality?

What do you mean? Are you saying the Christians before Theodosius's day had local Inquisitions and heretics were burned at the stake?

Just realised that what I said in Post #181 reads like modern Christians are going in for blood thirsty persecutions.

but I haven't found an estimate for how many there were in Nero's day.

I suspect none. At least none who would be recognizable as xtians in the 2'd-4th centuries.

I think it's common knowledge that Christianity developed over the centuries. What point are you trying to make here?