Why can't God sin?

[The Magic Pudding]

I don't know why a god couldn't have sinned, in his early days.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He goes on like like this for what would be many eons of man.
I see you sinning there, I told you not to via various crazy fucks.
It's dog paddle time for you, oh I realise it is a sin to drown you all.
I'm full of regret, I won't do it again, never never again, rainbow

[EGross]

In god's case, is he not even more (sinfully) responsible for putting the tree there in the first place?

Is God responsiable for giving us the oppertunity for sin/choice YES! For He put the Tree of knoweledge in the Garden. The Tree from the beginning repersentes Choice. Sin is not automatically bad the way you all seem to think it is. Sin=FreeWill. God knows this and is why He put the tree with in the Garden, and it is also why we have been given the oppertunity to be forgiven of our sins. You can not have one without the other. For Sin is Choice. with out choice/sin then there is only the expressed will of God. If there is only God's Expressed will then We must Always obey it.

I must respectfully disagree that the Adam and Eve story has any free will at all. In fact, free will is taken away repeatedly.

God tells Adam don't do this or you will die. That is threat/coercion. No free will exists. If I tell you to give me your money or I will kill you, you have no free will. You will give me the money, and if you don't that is your fear reacting. Either way, that choice was taken away.

The next part is that Eve, who was never told this rule by God (she get's it wrong, and nothing happens to her after she eats. There is a Jewish Midrash that the snake wanted Adam to eat it so the serpent could mate with Eve. Cool, huh?). But she is seduced, and seduction removes free will, because the seducer has manipulated you into making his choice.

Adam shows up, and he is coerced and seduced by his wife, and he does so. Then "Zap" God finds out, they all get punished (She has painful births, Adam has to get a job, and the serpent will transform into a living phallus (hence the Midrash - he became what he desired).

But wait, here is the kicker...

God then confirms the snakes seduction and says that he doesn't want them to eat from the other tree, so in order to take free choice away, he kicks them out on the basis of what they might do! (We never find out what happened to Mrs. Serpent, by the way).

No free will there. Just coercion, threats, and seduction, and at the end, having any possibility taken away before you can get it.

The story of the garden is one of seduction, not one of free will. (My determinism is showing). It is not really about what happens when you sin, but what happens when you decide to do something that puts you at the same level as God, which the snake hinted at and which God later confirmed. (Never piss off the big guy! He is a jealous big guy with ego issues)

[ThomM]

Humans could have been sinless, if one believes the scripture in Genesis prior to the fruit of the tree of knowledge, if god had been omni-benevolent and forgave the very first mistake innocent unconscious humans made, because omnipresent god permitted his agent satan, who only acts by his will, to enter into 'paradise'. Which isn't really paradise at all if the lord of the earth and the god of lies can gain access after the cherubim that guarded the place just so happened to be absent on the day.

I'd go further than that, and say that original sin isn't, and could not have been a sin at all. If Adam and Eve had only gained a concept of good and evil after they had eaten the fruit, then how could they have known that disobeying god was an evil act? How could they even have had a concept of things like betrayal, disobedience or lies, given that all they had ever known was perfect goodness? Not only did they not have a metric by which to measure morality, according to Genesis they didn't even have a knowledge that there was such a thing as good and evil, before committing the first "evil" act.

Beyond that, I love how when they gain knowledge of things that are evil their first instinct is to cover up in order to be good, yet god's all like "fuck y'all!" anyway.

Sorry, I don't mean to derail the thread, it's just that that always bothered me.

Actually - the problem with the claim that disobeying the god is an evil act is that the god told Abraham to MURDER his son - and to disobey would NOT have been an evil act.

The concept of sin is still another concept that is a non-starter
Since the Mono-theistic creator god is the source of everything - including evil -= the claim that sin exists is nonsense to begin with. How could murder be an offense against a god that created it and called everything it created - GOOD>

---

I don't know why a god couldn't have sinned, in his early days.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He did something the night before and wakes up full of regret.
He goes on like like this for what would be many eons of man.
I see you sinning there, I told you not to via various crazy fucks.
It's dog paddle time for you, oh I realise it is a sin to drown you all.
I'm full of regret, I won't do it again, never never again, rainbow

An Addition to that

God created everything - and therefore created evil as well.

And god saw everything it created and said it was GOOD

To if everything evil is good to the god - then sin does not exist

[EGross]

You are confusing sin with an evil act. The root of the term means "to miss", as in being told to do somethng, you fail, and that is a miss, a sin. Being told NOT to do something, and you fail and do it anyhow is a sin. But a sin is not necessiarily evil.

[ronedee]

I'd also like to add that, in addition to this, god being the all-knowing omnipresent being that he apparently is, he must have known exactly what Adam and Eve were going to do, and knew full well that his actions by putting the tree in the garden with Adam and Eve was going to doom humanity to sin and sedition for all eternity, by his rules and by the judgements he laid down as law.

In short, if this story is true, there's no getting around the fact that it's god's fault that it happened, and that there's overwhelming evidence to the fact that he had planned the whole thing to go the way that it did.

Well then....if that's your case?

He made up for it by sending His only Son as a sacrafice to Sin.

And to elaborate a little: It isn't for "eternity"! Jesus broke the bond of Sin, because He was sinless...but died anyway! The short answer? He broke the curse of God against us! You see Death was meant for Sinners, NOT THE SINLESS! Making more sense now? Probably NOT.

[Drich]

I must respectfully disagree that the Adam and Eve story has any free will at all. In fact, free will is taken away repeatedly.

God tells Adam don't do this or you will die. That is threat/coercion. No free will exists. If I tell you to give me your money or I will kill you, you have no free will. You will give me the money, and if you don't that is your fear reacting. Either way, that choice was taken away.

The next part is that Eve, who was never told this rule by God (she get's it wrong, and nothing happens to her after she eats. There is a Jewish Midrash that the snake wanted Adam to eat it so the serpent could mate with Eve. Cool, huh?). But she is seduced, and seduction removes free will, because the seducer has manipulated you into making his choice.

Adam shows up, and he is coerced and seduced by his wife, and he does so. Then "Zap" God finds out, they all get punished (She has painful births, Adam has to get a job, and the serpent will transform into a living phallus (hence the Midrash - he became what he desired).

But wait, here is the kicker...

God then confirms the snakes seduction and says that he doesn't want them to eat from the other tree, so in order to take free choice away, he kicks them out on the basis of what they might do! (We never find out what happened to Mrs. Serpent, by the way).

No free will there. Just coercion, threats, and seduction, and at the end, having any possibility taken away before you can get it.

The story of the garden is one of seduction, not one of free will. (My determinism is showing). It is not really about what happens when you sin, but what happens when you decide to do something that puts you at the same level as God, which the snake hinted at and which God later confirmed. (Never piss off the big guy! He is a jealous big guy with ego issues)

I never framed the Choice given to adam and eve in the Garden as the greek philosophy of free will. I have only ever refered to it as a Choice or an oppertunity to choose. I may have at some point even refered to this choice as the biblical interpertation of free will, but never have said that any of us at any point has what the greeks orginally defined as 'free will.'

(Which is the defination you are working with.)

[Question Mark]

I'd also like to add that, in addition to this, god being the all-knowing omnipresent being that he apparently is, he must have known exactly what Adam and Eve were going to do, and knew full well that his actions by putting the tree in the garden with Adam and Eve was going to doom humanity to sin and sedition for all eternity, by his rules and by the judgements he laid down as law.

In short, if this story is true, there's no getting around the fact that it's god's fault that it happened, and that there's overwhelming evidence to the fact that he had planned the whole thing to go the way that it did.

Well then....if that's your case?

He made up for it by sending His only Son as a sacrafice to Sin.

And to elaborate a little: It isn't for "eternity"! Jesus broke the bond of Sin, because He was sinless...but died anyway! The short answer? He broke the curse of God against us! You see Death was meant for Sinners, NOT THE SINLESS! Making more sense now? Probably NOT.

First of all, captain capslock, I could do with a little less attitude, and little maturity when discussing topics if you please.

But hang on for just a moment. The all-powerful, all knowing creator of the universe intentionally doomed his supposedly favourite creations to eternal hellfire because of something he cursed us with, and the only known solution to this was to send himself down as his own son, perform some magic tricks, get himself executed as a sacrifice of himself, to himself, and then require that everyone acknowledge this supposed sacrifice, which doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me since he got to be god and rule over all of humanity for eternity afterwards, in order to remove the curse that he put on us anyway?

That was the best thing he could think of? You know, instead of just removing sin from us, or I don't know, just forgiving us for the sins he put in us? He needed a blood sacrifice of his own mortal shell instead of just forgiving people?

Are you honestly trying to tell people that any of this makes any sense whatsoever? Except maybe to the bronze age sheep farmers who invented it all?

[EGross]

I must respectfully disagree that the Adam and Eve story has any free will at all. In fact, free will is taken away repeatedly.

I never framed the Choice given to adam and eve in the Garden as the greek philosophy of free will. I have only ever refered to it as a Choice or an oppertunity to choose. I may have at some point even refered to this choice as the biblical interpertation of free will, but never have said that any of us at any point has what the greeks orginally defined as 'free will.'

(Which is the defination you are working with.)

But i the story, God takes away the opportunity by kicking them out lest they choose to eat from the tree of eternal life. That is no choice at all, and is the closing punchline, which is the synopsis of the entire event, that no matter what you do, God can jump in and take choice away from you (Pharoah of Moses would agree with me on this...) making you sin when you don't want to or (Pharoah of Joseph would agree on this...) manipulating your life to do what he wanted anyhow.

There is a Midrash that says that when the Jews accepted the Torah, God held a mountain over their heads, warning them ahead of time that if they don't accept, then the mountain would fall on them. The author of that story was trying to point out that they had no choice. I prefer the alternate Midrash, which has Moses slaughtering animals in preparation for the big ceremoney. He is covered in blood. He holds the sword to the people and say "Accept! If not, you are next!"

Because if you really and truely believe in a God, then you have no choice. How can one say "no" who perfectly believes. But the non-believer, ah, well he does have a choice because there are so many options open, not just the one. And that is the paradox - the more you surrender, the less you are. And dogma would have you believe that such is the best thing there is, while reason would dictate otherwise.

[ThomM]

You are confusing sin with an evil act. The root of the term means "to miss", as in being told to do somethng, you fail, and that is a miss, a sin. Being told NOT to do something, and you fail and do it anyhow is a sin. But a sin is not necessiarily evil.

No - I am not

A sin is a claimed offense against a god - none of which are proven to exist.

IF the god created everything - including evil - and said that everything it created was good - then it is NOT possible to offend that god - because no matter what you do - it IS GOOD. Doing good should not offend a god!

[ronedee]

Well then....if that's your case?

He made up for it by sending His only Son as a sacrafice to Sin.

And to elaborate a little: It isn't for "eternity"! Jesus broke the bond of Sin, because He was sinless...but died anyway! The short answer? He broke the curse of God against us! You see Death was meant for Sinners, NOT THE SINLESS! Making more sense now? Probably NOT.

First of all, captain capslock, I could do with a little less attitude, and little maturity when discussing topics if you please.

But hang on for just a moment. The all-powerful, all knowing creator of the universe intentionally doomed his supposedly favourite creations to eternal hellfire because of something he cursed us with, and the only known solution to this was to send himself down as his own son, perform some magic tricks, get himself executed as a sacrifice of himself, to himself, and then require that everyone acknowledge this supposed sacrifice, which doesn't seem like much of a sacrifice to me since he got to be god and rule over all of humanity for eternity afterwards, in order to remove the curse that he put on us anyway?

That was the best thing he could think of? You know, instead of just removing sin from us, or I don't know, just forgiving us for the sins he put in us? He needed a blood sacrifice of his own mortal shell instead of just forgiving people?

Are you honestly trying to tell people that any of this makes any sense whatsoever? Except maybe to the bronze age sheep farmers who invented it all?

well...mister lowercase.....

Its all about "free-will". And therein lies "the" dilemma. How do you make something perfect out of chaos?

Once you explore the reasons why, the answers come. But you aren't interested in an answer. At least in one you have to find.... Just perpetuating choas.

Again...GOD OWES US NOTHING! Once you grasp that concept you will begin to understand.