Is the catholic church a force for good?

[EGross]

Willing to justify their faith with reason rather than fundamentalism or violence.

To quote my Jewish grandfather "ARE YOU EFFEN KITTING ME?" (my grandmother only let him say "EFFEN", and had trouble with his "D").

Ok, so the first 1700 years of wanton bloodlust doeasn't really count, since they don't do it now. But the reason that they don't do it now is not because it isn't Christlike. After all, they were being Christlike when they were slowly burning the flesh off of the feet of an infidel until he would convert (or at least say so).

No, it's because the rest of the world cried out "Enough!".

Oh, and don't think I am only speaking of Catholics. Martin Luther (not the American) incited his followers to kill for the sake of their Lord as well.

[KichigaiNeko]

Be fucked if I'm oging to spend 1:30:57 on a mental masturbation

Answer is NO

[Zen Badger]

No......

Next question?

[Napoléon]

Watched this debate a few times, Hitch and Fry nail it.

Ofcourse the answer is no.

[downbeatplumb]

Be fucked if I'm oging to spend 1:30:57 on a mental masturbation

Answer is NO

Actually a good debate...... spoiler alert..... the church lost

[Lion IRC]

Yes.

* Charity provider.

* Soul food and comfort for spiritual people. (Human need. Psyche)

* Defender of the Ten Commandments. (Social cohesion)

* Long-standing, mainstream institution forming an integral part of our deeply-rooted human culture of religion and traditions. (Religion is culture. Much like our inherent love of music, painting, cuisine, etc.) Try taking it away!

* Historical forerunner of the modern city/nation State. Provider of education, national security, rule of law.

* Historical patron of science.

* Willing to justify their faith with reason rather than fundamentalism or violence.

* And any evils done by wayward or pretending catholics hiding in the clergy (eg. atheists, pedophiles, etc) can be clearly demonstrated as unbiblical, anti-Christian and heretical.

read these as your response was ordered.

OK.

charity giver- does that mean that all the bad things are ignored becuase they gave money? no.

It's about the overall nett good. And I explained that before you can accuse the Church of doing ''bad stuff'' you would need to show that those deeds were actually approved and formally advocated by the Church in accordance with its scriptural doctrines. You cant blame the Church for actions which the Church renounces as sinful.

soul food and comfort for spiritual- so? people who worship kim jong il say it brings them comfort. does that mean he is a force for good? no.

We arent talking about Kim Jong Il. Try to stay focussed.
If religious praying/meditating lowers stress and makes (the majority of) people happy and if happiness is regarded as ethical objective for society then who are you to tell people to stop?

ten commandments suck. we don`t need it for morals nor did we ever, nor is it moral.

Thou shalt not kill. That doesnt suck
Thou shalt not lie. That doesnt suck
Thou shalt not steal. That doesnt suck
Honor your mother and father (originators of the basic family unit).
That doesnt suck

culture changes and progressess. religions doesn`t.

People tend to prefer eternal truths when it comes to the meaning of life issues.
Where did I come from? Do I matter? Is there an afterlife? Does sin/evil exist? What is life? Is the Harlem Shake is better than Gangnam style. etc. etc.

[Minimalist]

People tend to prefer eternal truths when it comes to the meaning of life issues.

Stupid people prefer fiction to reality.

[Esquilax]

People tend to prefer eternal truths when it comes to the meaning of life issues.

People do. Religion just has trouble providing that whole "truth" part of the equation.

[EGross]

People seem to think that the "10 commandments" created morality. Do you think the Jews were killing and having adultery and stealing and then Moses gives them the rules and they go "Aw, man! That's a switch!" No, it is a basic foundation of humanity, and societies have come up with rules like these on their own. According to the Rambam (Maimonides), societies that come up with such rules exist, but they don't get to have a share in the World to Come because they did it themselves, not because they believe that God wants it.

The 7 commandments (Ok, Christians call it 10, but what you gonna do?) are interesting, and contradictory, for example it says not to murder (versus kill), but if God or one of his speakers says it's ok, then that one is off the table (Spanish inquisition? Crusades? Pogroms? The Church [and protestants] played games with this one). Stealing? Kidnapping? Coveting for yourself that which was not yours in the first place? And one of our favorites that you must do in order to be a Christian: Having a God with a form (or as it is called in the text, an elohim acherim), even a mental image.

All of these things must be very Christ-like because all Christians have done and continue to do at least one of these in order to be a Christian.

Of course, one forgets that along with these nice ideas are horrible punishments. These are religious edicts from the Bible that civillized societies reject as barbaric:

A rebellious child who does not obey his parents iis put to death.
A Jew who steals from a Jew pays a fee, but a non-Jew who steals gets the death penalty.
See a cute woman you want for your own? She doesn't want you? Rape her and pay a 50 shekel fine. It's all good.
Make a fire on a Saturday, death by stoning. (The American Pilgrims would put you in the stocks and beat you in public for working on a Sunday. A better idea).
Jewish honor killing of a Kohens daughter who acted in a whorish manner - force burning metal down her throat until she burns to death from the inside.
A Jew who decides to worship Jesus - death by stoning. The same punishment goes for the missionary.
For blaspheming God - death by stoning.

You get the idea. Morality does not come from a book where the majority of the rules are about how to properly kill and harm others. In the Old Testament, there are (for some reason) 613 commandments. 248 are positive things (many do not apply due to the lack of a temple), but the majority, 365 of them, are what you CANNOT do, followed by extreme punishments in most cases. Yeah, I know, to make it easier all of Christianity went for the Cliff Notes version, and tried to wipe out all of the people who went for the original stuff, but that is the Biblical Foundation that bible thumpers like to quote when they see Gays or Abortion Clinics, and ignore it when they celebrate Easter or blow up an abortion clinic.

With the exception of a couple (Like Jainism and probably one more), all religions are death cults. They either look forward to death, find ways to cause death, or worship before a carving of a Jew being tortured and was stabbed to death.

Ah, to be free of all of that is true freedom for humanity!

[PhilipD]

Most of my response has already been analysed here. Following the debate provided, Stephen Fry made an amusing point on the statement that if the Catholic Church was not there to provide a guiding light in what we'd consider modern morality (what tends to be the general consensus in this day and age) then what are they for? And it's a very valid point. The Catholic Church has blood on their hands, metaphorically and literally. If they didn't know better, then their purpose is moot. And if they did know better, they were not, in the past, a force for good. And if they weren't in the past, the only question remains is will they be in the future? And that can be answered by the resignation of the latest Pope and whatever actions they take from there.