Is the catholic church a force for good?

[Esquilax]

It's about the overall nett good. And I explained that before you can accuse the Church of doing ''bad stuff'' you would need to show that those deeds were actually approved and formally advocated by the Church in accordance with its scriptural doctrines. You cant blame the Church for actions which the Church renounces as sinful.

So... wait: you can't blame the church for any of it's bad behavior, because in theory it has a book that tells its adherents not to do those things? By that logic, we can't blame a murderer because we have laws against killing.

It doesn't matter what's written in the scriptures. What matters is the conduct of the people therein, specifically the people in power, claiming to be the instruments of god. And in the catholic church, those people in power sit in obscene wealth, while propagating whatever lie happens to suit their purposes at the time, and shuffling pedophiles around to keep them from facing justice for their actions. I feel pretty secure in judging them.

There isn't some external entity called "the church" which is separate from the people that staff it, you know.

[Angrboda]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgMiLYF-sM4

[justin]

Lion, did you even watch this video or are just spouting off random bullshit you have heard from theists? Regardless of how much you are provided with contradictions i doubt you'll continue to keep you head up your ass. I was seeing if someone could give a good answer and dealing with yours i have heard far better. And they were still wrong.

[xXUKAtheistForTheTruthXx]

Doubt it

[Lion IRC]

It's about the overall nett good. And I explained that before you can accuse the Church of doing ''bad stuff'' you would need to show that those deeds were actually approved and formally advocated by the Church in accordance with its scriptural doctrines. You cant blame the Church for actions which the Church renounces as sinful.

So... wait: you can't blame the church for any of it's bad behavior, because in theory it has a book that tells its adherents not to do those things? By that logic, we can't blame a murderer because we have laws against killing....

You have overlooked the fact that the vast majority of people obey the laws we have against killing. So there ARE two groups.

The ones who do what society would expect - obey the law.
And the ones who dont.

By analogy, the Church CAN therefore point to a clear distinction between those who act in accordance with the public, formally advocated scriptural doctrines of the Church and those who do NOT.

You cannot blame the Church for deeds which it officially renounces as an abomination - especially when it is apparently quite common for the very people doing those deeds (liars and deceivers, pedophiles, etc) to outwardly pretend to be members of the church.

[Darkstar]

By analogy, the Church CAN therefore point to a clear distinction between those who act in accordance with the public, formally advocated scriptural doctrines of the Church and those who do NOT.

You cannot blame the Church for deeds which it officially renounces as an abomination

Except when it tries to cover those deeds up and simply shift the pedophiles to a different church. They can condemn the child molesters all they like, but at the end of the day actions speak louder than words.

[Lion IRC]

...despite the bible clearly indicating that sexual immorality is a sin,

...and despite the fact that no catholic Church leader has ever condoned or justified the sin of pedophilia/rape/sex outside marriage or the sin of lying,

...and despite the fact that priests who, , take vows of chastity before (an almighty, all-seeing) God,

secular society has come to perceive that the words priest and pedophile are not mutually exclusive.

So who exactly is to blame for bad stuff done by people whose actions are so obviously CONTRARY to what the Church teaches?

The Church must purge any and all pedophiles and/or atheists who pretend to be priests.

It sickens church goers to think that there might be someone standing in front of them who can only be classified as a pathological liar if they on the one hand,
quote St Pauls admonishments against sexual immorality and yet do those same disgusting deeds in private.

[Darkstar]

So who exactly is to blame for bad stuff done by people whose actions are so obviously CONTRARY to what the Church teaches?

The people who do them, for one. I never said that church teachings were okay with such behaviors. Yet, strangely, they try to cover them up anyway. It isn't that the actions are committed, as the church's teachings obviously condemn such things, nor do I believe that the church has ever officially condoned any such thing, but that the curch covered them up. Why? Their teachings do indeed condemn such behavior and yet they cover it up...why? Even if, for the sake of argument, the child molesting priests were not "true Christians", what would that change?

[Lion IRC]

The Church does NOT cover up criminal acts. The Church is the body which calls them crimes in THE FIRST PLACE!

This is what the Church says...

Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. (John 3:20)

[Mystic]

Leadership is always taken. Are they force of good? Almost every leadership brings about some good.

Meh. I don't know. Half full, half empty type of outlook choice here me thinks.