Am I a "liberal"?

[Violet]

MUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUHAUAHUAHUAHU!

Thank you Adrian ^_^

[bozo]

If you Google "2012 End of the World" you also get some testaments to its very existence. Using Google is not a substitute for reasoning in a debate; all Google does is show how many times something is mentioned. It is an argumentum ad populum on your part; a logical fallacy.

I never doubted there was racism in the police force; what I doubted was your opinion that education doesn't solve the problem. I also opposed affirmative action because all it does is promote racism rather than solve it. It is understandable why some people become racist if minorities are getting jobs that they don't deserve. Double edged sword, as I stated before.

Great to see you do have some nice family values. Disowning your son because he has an opposing view to you. Wow...just wow.

Why don't you simply search " multicultural britain " like I suggested? That's a " link " you asked me for.
It has numerous reports on what you say doesn't exist. In your bubble mind, I presume every box has to be ticked for it to exist, so because Racism is still around that means we aren't multicultural. Is that your position?
You did ask for a link to police racism, so there it is. I never suggested affirmative action in the police force would mean unsuitably qualified people would be recruited. That's the spin you've added. Your language infers ethnics aren't up to the job. The kind of evidence that leads me to doubting your claim to not be a racist ( note here I didn't accuse you of being racist ). And education IN ITSELF will not eliminate racism, in my view. If you think it will, then you're being bubble-simplistic.

It was you who brought age into play. I have 3 offspring, how many have you? I could rise to your bait
but I won't. We clearly disagree on most things, so shall we just leave it at that?

---

Dryland fish,
From your posts I list categories of people you have no time for:-

white trash
black trash
christians
muslims
the poor
single mothers
fat americans
republican and democrat politicians
left-wingers

Now I might have missed some others along the way, but can you help me understand...what kind of people meet with your approval?

[dry land fish]

From your posts I list categories of people you have no time for:-

white trash
black trash
christians
muslims
the poor
single mothers
fat americans
republican and democrat politicians
left-wingers

Now I might have missed some others along the way, but can you help me understand...what kind of people meet with your approval?

HAHA that's hilarious. You are right...I usually have no time for those people. Scratch the fat people though. Sometimes being fat is a result of genetics and not just being a slob. I like regular average Americans with a job who aren't radical. People who have common sense, mind their own business, don't want me to pay for their kids food, and who pay taxes into the system. I dont know anyone that likes any politician no matter what side they are on. I don't dislike the poor...I just dislike the welfare poor. Who likes trash of any color? Do you like trashy people?

[Tiberius]

Why don't you simply search " multicultural britain " like I suggested? That's a " link " you asked me for.

I don't recall asking you for a link on multicultural britain. The mere existence of people who think we are multicultural does not mean we are so. This is the difference between opinion and reality. I wanted a link for the police racism thing, which you provided. Racism in the police is not opinion; it has reported instances. Multiculturalism is all opinion.

It has numerous reports on what you say doesn't exist. In your bubble mind, I presume every box has to be ticked for it to exist, so because Racism is still around that means we aren't multicultural. Is that your position?

It wasn't just the existence of racism. Multiculturalism is about integration, and I do not see any such integration of other cultures into our society. What I see is people's cultures being taken away from them and being forced to adopt the "British" culture instead.

What is the point of definitions if you can just say "well, this circumstance fills part of the definition, so therefore they equate". This society isn't multicultural just because you say so. If it doesn't fit the description of multicultural, it is not a multicultural society! This isn't difficult logic to wrap your head around!

You did ask for a link to police racism, so there it is. I never suggested affirmative action in the police force would mean unsuitably qualified people would be recruited. That's the spin you've added.

No, you suggested that affirmative action was fair. I gave you examples of how it is not fair at all, which you ignored. You'd prefer to tick boxes and end up with a sloppy police force than have an excellent police force at the expense of ethnic minorities (and indeed, even some majority workers) who weren't good enough for the job.

Your language infers ethnics aren't up to the job. The kind of evidence that leads me to doubting your claim to not be a racist ( note here I didn't accuse you of being racist ).

Ethics are up to the job, and one of the main ideas of ethics is equality. There is no equality in affirmative action, there is only discrimination against people who rightly deserve the job. Your version of ethics gives special treatment to a select group of people; that is the complete opposite of equality.

And education IN ITSELF will not eliminate racism, in my view. If you think it will, then you're being bubble-simplistic.

Education is all about teaching people to think differently. Racism is only around because certain people think a certain way. There is no genetic reason (as far as we know) for racism; it's all social. Change the thoughts and you change the attitude. Once racists realise their arguments are all inherently flawed, the non-ignorant ones will see reason. All affirmative action does is give them a reason to be racist. They already think ethnic minorities are bad, so add to that the fact that (in their eyes) they are also getting jobs that they do not deserve, and you only worsen the situation.

It was you who brought age into play. I have 3 offspring, how many have you? I could rise to your bait
but I won't. We clearly disagree on most things, so shall we just leave it at that?

I have no offspring, but when I do I will work hard to provide for them, unlike (apparently) yourself. I'll leave it when you've finished making such ridiculous counter arguments. However given your history on these forums, I don't think that will happen very soon.

[Oldandeasilyconfused]

What would make them follow laws forbidding them from associating with other gangsters?

We had 'consorting laws' here until well into the 1970's. It was illegal to 'consort with known criminals' That meant each other as well as John Q Public. A member of "the consorting squad" once came to my flat to warn my flatmate not to associate with a crim he'd met. For some strange reason,criminals tended to ignore that law,pretty much the same way as the other laws they ignored.

NOW: Locally there is a legal (supreme court) challenge over another version of "guilt by association laws" passed recently. Known as "the anti biker laws',the claim is the laws will get rid of the criminal biker gangs because they [allegedly] control illegal drugs in this state. A club may now be declared "an outlaw organisation".That means their colours may not be worn in public.They may not associate with one another in public or on any property. Their assets may be ceased unless they can show legal provenance and/or their premises may be demolished under "anti fortress" legislation.

Magistrates are currently refusing to hear charges brought under that law. We still have an independent judiciary.

The legal challenge is on the grounds of unconstitionality; it may succeed.. Other state governments are watching the proceeding with deep interest.If it the legal challenge fails,similar legislation will be introduced [at least} in Victoria (Melbourne) and New South Wales (Sydney).

My concerns :

The notion of 'guilt by association' bothers me. I think it's abrogates a basic principle of the rule of law.

The"tougher laws and bigger prison " mentality within the general community is a worry;EG the US currently has the largest per capita prison population in the world. How's that working out?

It scares the crap out of me when a government expresses and acts on that mentality. How many Americans here have actually read "The Patriot Ac"? I've read only bits,and was appalled.


Here there is also the teensy niggle that "anti biker legislation" doesn't actually mention bikers,at all. It can be used against anyone.Nor does a person need to be charged with ANYTHING to have assets seized.

[dry land fish]

It wouldn't be hard to drum up some intense consequences for associating with a violent gang. Harsher prison sentences, no possibility of parole, huge fines, a felony on ones record. To some it could contribute to the three strikes you are out law. We have a huge prison population in America. One of the reasons is that we let people sit on death row way too long. Kill them and get it over with. Also, there are many gang members in prison as it is. Obviously trying to control gangs the way we have been doing hasn't worked out. If we can possibly slow down the numbers of people joining or squash the gang population all together then we can keep many people out of prison. In order to do that we'll have to put many people in prison. More than we have right now. Hopefully by taking more and more gang members off of the streets we can keep children from joining because there won't be as many members to proposition the kids. Maybe they will go on and do something with their life. That's the best way to stop gangs....to keep the next generation of kids from joining.

Some prisons are making inmates farm for their food. I know there is one in the southern US who says "if your crop doesn't come in you don't eat". This helps keep taxpayer money from paying for their food. They even cook their food so this keeps us from having to pay for cooks to work in the prison. We need to bring back chain gangs and busting rocks. Making license plates and picking up trash doesn't cut it. Make them do everything at the prison. Do all the housekeeping, strip the floors, paint the walls, repairs, etc. In my county if you go to jail you are charged a fee. Every day you stay there you owe when you get out. If you can't pay your room and board by a certain time then you might get your car taken or whatever to be able to cover the fine. If someone commits a violent crime then the state should be able to take their posessions and sell them to make up money that will be spent for keeping them alive. Take their car, home, tax refund, bank accont, and other property. Those things will also make people think twice about violent crimes if they know they will lose their posessions or money.

The only time I even remotely take up for an offender is if they are a nonviolent offender. I really wish we could give non violent felony offenders their gun rights. A person can catch a felony in KY for growing too many pot plants. People like that don't deserve to be treated like a criminal. I have no heart for violent offenders though. Their life should be a living hell until the day they die.

As for racism. Education can't stop racism. It can help stop it. If you notice most of your racist groups are brainwashed and have little education beyond high school.

[bozo]

Adrian, I'm now bored with the constant repetition of this!
We simply disagree on muliculturalism, affirmative action and the power of education to eliminate racism.

Your comments and speculation about my parenting and work ethic are pretty personal stuff, don't you think, on reflection? I'll ignore them but kindly don't repeat.

And finally, why do you have to be so confrontational and aggressive? There's really no need and nothing is gained by it.

---

Dlf,
There's probably room for a new thread on the subject of " kinds of people I don't have time for ".
You and I are different. You are capitalist, I am socialist. Therefore our affiliations will be different.
I champion the poor and downtrodden and curse the system that has put them there.
I get annoyed when attention is given to these types of people who may play the system to survive, whilst the fatcats employ accountants to avoid paying their dues. The fatcats who get rich by the sweat of others.
I hate religion.
I dislike 2-bit celebrities, the type that get instant acclaim for precious little.
I hate royalty and the class system.
I hate politicians that send young men and women off to die for nothing, as in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Fat people are ok though ( if they ain'#t one of the above that is!! )

[binny]

I'm so happy you guys like fat people. My all fat people in the world rejoice

[Tiberius]

Your comments and speculation about my parenting and work ethic are pretty personal stuff, don't you think, on reflection? I'll ignore them but kindly don't repeat.

Your comments and speculation about my views on non-white people was pretty personal stuff don't you think, on reflection? I don't care if you didn't call me a racist directly, but you more than implied it in every post, and there isn't much difference in my book. I don't mind you calling me a racist, but as long as you do so I will continually deny it, because it simply isn't true.

And finally, why do you have to be so confrontational and aggressive? There's really no need and nothing is gained by it.

I'm confrontational because you come out with such lovely streams of bullshit. I'm aggressive because you continue to spread such bullshit when they have been thoroughly "debunked" by myself. You go from "Britain is a multicultural society" to "well, maybe it's technically a semi-multicultural society" to "Actually no, wait, if you change the definition and ignore a few of the attributes, the UK is a multicultural society". If you were to write the dictionary, you've have one word in it, and depending on how you interpreted that word, you'd claim it covered all the definitions we need.

[bozo]

Adrian, I never called you a racist outright. I said that based on your posts I had doubts about your claim not to be.

As for your attitude??? I come out with bullshit...IN YOUR OPINION.
You " debunk " my bullshit!!! My, my, what an ego you have!
And you completely misinterpret my position on multicultarism...I claimed we are multicultural and none of your " bullshit " changes that view.