Born this way, baby

[thesummerqueen]

I call threads like these "asshole litmus"

[Silver]

Yes, there's a genetic part and an environmental part. I submit to you that this is vastly different than the "choice" that the christian right wants you to believe it is.

Indeed. I believe this one article summed it up rather nicely in its conclusion:

This chapter started with a comment on evidence. One is also appropriate here: those who argue against a biological basis for sexual orientation often cite studies of negative findings that supposedly refute those of positive findings (e.g., Byne 1994; Byne & Parsons 1993). It is rare in biology or behavior to find all research to agree in every aspect of a long-running controversy. That is the nature of the controversy. If all evidence pointed in one direction, only the prejudiced would continue the debate. The behavioral and sexological sciences are not perfect. Argument by “objection” or “call for perfection” certainly might prompt additional research but will not yield solutions, nor do they really disprove a theory (Fearnside & Holther 1959).The opposition needs to do more: it needs to present strong alternative hypotheses with controlled research and data sufficient to substantiate them.

Looked at from another angle it can be asked, if sexual orientation is so easily modified by environmental forces, why don’t we readily see its effect? Why is not therapy to change homosexual to heterosexual behavior readily successful even when started early and when parents and the individual are eager for such change (Green 1987)? If the basis for homosexual behavior is some set of environmental forces, why are these factors not only so difficult to identify but impossible to bolster with reliable and consistent findings? Those environmental forces most under suspicion have been looked for and found wanting. Certainly particular stages or critical periods in development seem more significant than others in organizing and activating these behaviors. Perhaps we have to be more sophisticated in selecting time periods to investigate or developing techniques of investigation.

For some persons, the idea that sexual orientation is biologically biased toward heterosexuality or homosexuality and predisposed is threatening. They would like to think the choice is open and always fresh. This is more often a political stance than a scientific one.

http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/biblio/articl...pects.html

[TaraJo]

Three things have come up in my head with threads like this.

1) Homosexuality being normal and natural is extremely well established in the scietific community. It's reached the point where it's so well established that we don't even bother debating it. Sometimes people will try to figure out what causes homosexuality, and we've come to some interesting conclusions from genetics, epi-genetics, prenatal hormone levels, prenatal brain development and even birth order. None of these are things that people have any realistic choice over.

2) Even if it is a choice to be gay, that doesn't do anything to make it bad. So, whether you're gay or straight, does it have any damaging detrimental effect on anyone?

3) Why would someone actuall choose to be gay? I mean, really, look at the hate and discrimination we have to face. Look at people being beaten and murdered and harassed for being gay. Look at children being kicked out by their family because they're gay. Look at people who can't marry their partner or get marriage rights. What possible reason could anyone have for choosing all these things?

[Esquilax]

3) Why would someone actuall choose to be gay? I mean, really, look at the hate and discrimination we have to face. Look at people being beaten and murdered and harassed for being gay. Look at children being kicked out by their family because they're gay. Look at people who can't marry their partner or get marriage rights. What possible reason could anyone have for choosing all these things?

From a religious perspective, this one's easy: sin or the devil. More likely both at once.

It's their grand cheat; they can just put things down to sin, which means they don't have to examine motivations, or critically think about the real reasons that someone might do something. Sin, to them, is a full stop, the brakes on their brain regarding this issue, that they pull whenever they find someone doing something that disagrees with their doctrine, because the real answers to the question of why people might do something might cause them to question why it's a sin in the first place. And they simply can't have that.

[catfish]

LOL!
I love when an "atheist" gives a religious perspective. Seriously man, religious people surely don't need your fucked up logic represening their views...

[thesummerqueen]

3) Why would someone actuall choose to be gay? I mean, really, look at the hate and discrimination we have to face. Look at people being beaten and murdered and harassed for being gay. Look at children being kicked out by their family because they're gay. Look at people who can't marry their partner or get marriage rights. What possible reason could anyone have for choosing all these things?

Not just sin...but a sin that feels really good to a certain vocally homophobic portion of evangelicals. They know it feels good. But their bible says no, and they take it "literally," therefore they have to condemn it. Look at how holy they are, denying themselves the sin they want to feel. Denying all that hard throbbing cock. We should all start holding up signs around their churches that say "You LOVE the cock!"

And then there's that fear that gays have no self-control and will buttfuck them into oblivion...much like they feel it's okay to impregnate their wives with no thought for her or her health. Just put a fetus in there! Gays want to buttfuck sin into you! They seriously seem to think that every gay man wants them. Or that gays want their children - you know gays are all pedophiles, right? Gays have the power of the devil and his lust as well!

Gays: they're just not that into you. I know, because I hear the comments they make about the way you dress.

Blech.

[Esquilax]

LOL!
I love when an "atheist" gives a religious perspective. Seriously man, religious people surely don't need your fucked up logic represening their views...

You seriously just gonna come in and mock everything anyone writes rather than giving some kind of contribution of your own? Wanna try something other than trolling, you waste of space?

[catfish]

LOL!
I love when an "atheist" gives a religious perspective. Seriously man, religious people surely don't need your fucked up logic represening their views...

You seriously just gonna come in and mock everything anyone writes rather than giving some kind of contribution of your own? Wanna try something other than trolling, you waste of space?

Maybe you don't understand what a strawman is, I'm finding it hard to believe you're serious half the time.

Would you object (I can supply you with the definition for "objection" again if you need it) to me stating some "atheist" position and then tearing it down or would you expect at least some intelectual honesty?

Otherwise, you guys can sit here and have a circle-jerk to your little hearts' content.

It's an abomination I tell ya!!!

[Esquilax]

Maybe you don't understand what a strawman is, I'm finding it hard to believe you're serious half the time.

Would you object (I can supply you with the definition for "objection" again if you need it) to me stating some "atheist" position and then tearing it down or would you expect at least some intelectual honesty?

Otherwise, you guys can sit here and have a circle-jerk to your little hearts content.

It's an abomination I tell ya!!!

Well, I've not exactly encountered an argument against homosexuality that didn't boil down to "it's a sin!" or on this forum "because AIDS," despite how wrong that one is. I've not heard a solitary compelling secular argument against homosexuality; if you've got one, I'd at least listen.

Beyond that, my point about sin still stands: sin is a full stop. I know not every christian acts like this, but the vast majority of the ones I've been exposed to have done this; no matter the actual reasoning behind actions they disagree you provide, at the very base they believe the reason you do these things is because of your underlying sinful nature, which somehow overshadows the real reasons you've given them.

I know that blanket statements aren't useful, but I'd also like to think I don't need to preface every last thing I say with a little asterisk about that.

[TaraJo]

LOL!
I love when an "atheist" gives a religious perspective. Seriously man, religious people surely don't need your fucked up logic represening their views...

Well, perhaps we wouldn't have to give our guesses on the beliefs of theists if a few theists were willing to answer the difficult questions. Honestly, I'd love to hear what they have to say, but what was said is about what hey usually say.