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For good people to do bad things...
#91
RE: For good people to do bad things...
Hitler didn't interpret the scriptures like I do if he believed what he was doing was right. If he was a Christian and committing what were immoral acts then I can confidently say "Christ like" is not how I'd describe them.

Me defining myself as Christian is false in a way. Mostly I am not Christian. I accepted and believe but what difference does that really make? Following Christ is all that is Christian.
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#92
RE: For good people to do bad things...
(September 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Hitler didn't interpret the scriptures like I do if he believed what he was doing was right. If he was a Christian and committing what were immoral acts then I can confidently say "Christ like" is not how I'd describe them.

Maybe but if he claimed to be a Christian (and it is my understanding he did) then despite his interpretation of scripture that's exactly what he was.

(September 10, 2009 at 5:16 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Me defining myself as Christian is false in a way. Mostly I am not Christian. I accepted and believe but what difference does that really make? Following Christ is all that is Christian.

Whatever.

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
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#93
RE: For good people to do bad things...
Actually, that would make you more Christian than the others. If following Christ is the only thing that makes a Christian... then any added on beliefs are added on contrary or separate from Christ, and are therefore non-Christian Smile

So congratz(?) on being more Christian than the others, fr0d0 Smile
Please give me a home where cloud buffalo roam
Where the dear and the strangers can play
Where sometimes is heard a discouraging word
But the skies are not stormy all day
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#94
RE: For good people to do bad things...
I would follow Christ through rain, hail, snow and sleet ... mainly out of curiosity, I'd want to know what the bastard was up to!

Kyu
Angry Atheism
Where those who are hacked off with the stupidity of irrational belief can vent their feelings!
Come over to the dark side, we have cookies!

Kyuuketsuki, AngryAtheism Owner & Administrator
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#95
RE: For good people to do bad things...
(September 10, 2009 at 3:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: It was your statement of what constituted a Christian "someone who believes in God and Christ" that I was pointing out the illogicality of. By this statement, the Anti-Christ could be a Christian... obviously ludicrous.

Fair enough, but I thought I made it clear that that wasn't my point?

In fact, did I mention it here or are you just remembering a convo we have on MSN? If I mentioned it here, it wasn't my point any way.

EvF
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#96
RE: For good people to do bad things...
(September 10, 2009 at 5:51 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote:
(September 10, 2009 at 3:23 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: It was your statement of what constituted a Christian "someone who believes in God and Christ" that I was pointing out the illogicality of. By this statement, the Anti-Christ could be a Christian... obviously ludicrous.

Fair enough, but I thought I made it clear that that wasn't my point?

In fact, did I mention it here or are you just remembering a convo we have on MSN? If I mentioned it here, it wasn't my point any way.

EvF

You said it on this thread Evie..

(September 7, 2009 at 10:21 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: To understand what Christianity is I just have to understand the basic definition: Christianity being belief in God and Christ. Unless you are suggesting that I don't understand this obvious definition, then you are committing the NTS fallacy, right?.
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#97
RE: For good people to do bad things...
Okay. Well my point was that it seemed like you were guilty of the NTS fallacy, because I disagreed with you so you attacked me with that I didn't even know what it was. As if it was just because I disagreed with you. It seemed silly. Nevermind I guess.

EvF
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#98
RE: For good people to do bad things...
(September 10, 2009 at 5:42 pm)Saerules Wrote: Actually, that would make you more Christian than the others. If following Christ is the only thing that makes a Christian... then any added on beliefs are added on contrary or separate from Christ, and are therefore non-Christian Smile

So congratz(?) on being more Christian than the others, fr0d0 Smile

Hmm... Hehe Smile

I've heard it described as a focus rather than a walled garden. There's no magic line to cross that suddenly makes you like Christ. Yeah you step over the line of belief but the point is still the focus. Without the focus you aren't 'Christ-ian' IMO.
(September 10, 2009 at 6:29 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Okay. Well my point was that it seemed like you were guilty of the NTS fallacy, because I disagreed with you so you attacked me with that I didn't even know what it was. As if it was just because I disagreed with you. It seemed silly. Nevermind I guess.

EvF

I attacked the statement because I knew it to be incorrect. I don't know what you really think. You called the NTS on me and I didn't understand. If it was for the reason you gave then that wasn't right but was to the best of your knowledge. No offense taken buddy Wink
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#99
RE: For good people to do bad things...
No problem. I thought you were implying that I didn't know what Christianity is because I was disagreeing with you. Because of course I have enough understanding to have a general understanding of what it is, because there is a vast amount of difference in Christianity in general, and the common ground I basically understand. So to claim I don't know what it is, as in I absolutely don't know at all - I see to be false. To claim I don't know all the details, maybe that's right, but to just say I don't know what it is...
...
lol.

EvF
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RE: For good people to do bad things...
(September 7, 2009 at 10:21 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: He didn't say it explicitly, no. But the implication seemed to be there, to me.

Well, if you want to charge someone with committing a fallacy it will take more than your sneaking suspicion. Fallacies are not ineffable. If he did not explicitly express the No-True-Scotsman fallacy, then you should refrain from making the allegation at all—or at least couch it in very inquisitive and provisional terms. It is your credibility that ends up taking a hit, Evie. (And ask yourself whether or not the basis of your allegation, quoted above, has more in common with the Salem witch trials.)

I know you replied with your understanding of "the basic definition" of what a Christian is. I think that was precisely the issue. You said the basic definition of Christianity is "belief in God and Christ" (and so, by extension, a Christian is someone who believes in God and Christ). If what Christianity believes and affirms has any basis in the sacred Scriptures—and it does—then this definition you shared could not get much weaker. So then it must be asked: (i) what source is that "basic definition" derived from, and (ii) is it recognized as authoritative by Christian orthodoxy? I think the moment we begin exploring that, we will discover why Frodo alleged that you don't know what a Christian is.

(Contrary to the opinions of the ignorant, there are orthodox doctrines unanimously affirmed by all of Christianity, from Catholic to Orthodox to Protestant, such as the final authority of canonical Scriptures for essentials of doctrine, the content of the first four ecumenical creeds, etc. As 16th century theologian Rupertus Meldenius expressed it, "In necessariis unitas.")

(September 7, 2009 at 10:21 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: Unless you are suggesting that I don't understand this obvious definition. Then you are committing the NTS fallacy—right?

It's not about whether or not you understand that definition; it's about whether the definition or its source is recognized in Christian orthodoxy as authoritative. The sacred Scriptures are authoritative, for example, as are the apostolic creeds (e.g., 1 Cor. 8:6) and specific ecumenical creeds (e.g., the Athanasian Creed). Your say-so, or the dictionary? Not so much. You should review the second chapter of Schaff's Creeds of Christendom, which itself has been around for nearly 200 years; i.e., you missed goal posts that have actually never moved.

(September 7, 2009 at 10:21 pm)EvidenceVsFaith Wrote: So would you say that if (hypothetically speaking) you were to define someone who followed the Christian fundamentals—who by normal definition was a 'Christian'—as not a true Christian because you disagreed with them, or they didn't act like 'true Christians' according to you, then that is still not the NTS fallacy if there's not necessarily a shifting of goalposts?

Neither myself nor Frodo, I believe, have said anything about whether some person is a True Christian™ or not. My argument, at least, as been about the person's specific beliefs; i.e., that "murderous violence and terrorist activity follows from their beliefs, but those beliefs are not Christian beliefs. Christianity neither commands nor condones such appalling acts; more than this, it contradicts them quite diametrically." Ergo, I said those specific beliefs are not Christian, saying nothing about whether some person is a True Christian™ or not.

(September 9, 2009 at 2:39 pm)Saerules Wrote: Jesus says that if you believe in him you will go to heaven. ...

Against your contorted analysis here, Jesus said a good deal more than that about getting to heaven—abruptly pulling the rug out from under your "perfect Christian hypocrisy" conclusion.

Oops? Big Grin
Man is a rational animal who always loses his temper when
called upon to act in accordance with the dictates of reason.
(Oscar Wilde)
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