The price of attonement???

[The Grand Nudger]

That's just it. God (at that time) did not have control of the world.

LOL, that would explain alot. Still doesn't by the way, but the point is moot.

If you remember after Creation He handed the reigns of this world over to Adam to be it's care taker. Then Adam handed the reigns over to satan when he ate of the forbidden fruit.

That's stretching it a bit, you wouldn't become the owner of my little farm just because I ate an apple you gave me. Again, it hardly matters but the urge to plow through and bicker over ancillary shit is becoming apparent - yet again.

Or rather Adam handed Humanity over to sin, and as Satan is the Father of all sin. Meaning Humanity (the rulers of this world) became the properity of Sin, and sin belongs to satan. (Satan manipulates man through his bondage to sin, making Satan the ruler of this world.) *Side note this world is the cloest thing to a satan run Hell/Satan run world (where the devil is in command) Real Hell is not satan's realm as in other religions. Hell is where Satan is punished forever. Hell was stoked and primed for him to be punished forever not us.

cool story bro.

Anyways, The offer Satan made to Christ was a way to reobtain dominion over this realm, this world without Having to die on the cross. God's way Had Christ beaten and scouraged, to pay for sin (And maybe it cost Him His Deity as well) Satan offered to simply give everything back without having to give anything up.

Satan could do that? He had that power and authority? Your godman didn;t see through this shit?

All He asked was that Jesus turn His back on God and worship Him. (Which if you think about it is kinda what God did to Jesus, In that He turned His back on Christ while He died on the cross.)

Separating god from jesus does help to turn jesus into the victim in the story, sure. Not sure why you want to do that though, as it makes the story - and your explicit approval of the actions descried therein- even more horrendous.

Tell me that is not a temptation. I am a goal oreanted person, and if the Goal is X and we have a very difficult plan to obtain X at Great or even catastrophic loss, and someone else offers a plan to ensure the accomplishment of X with little to no loss.. I would be in.

I Thank Christ it was Him there and not me. This world would look very different otherwise.

I can tell you that it's not temptation if you have the kind of perspective your fellow wolves claim (I appreciate that you believe otherwise). Scapegoaters rarely wish for themselves to be the ones chained to the post, unsurprising. Monstrously evil hypocrites. Ready an willing to torture another for their own inequity, thankful even that it has been done, and glad that they did not have to be the one holding the scourge - but entirely unwilling to subject themselves to the same. The very thought is anethema to the motivations behind vicarious redemption or torture by proxy in the first place.

[Cinjin]

(Which is indeed a pretty big deal, God so loved us that He Gave His only Son and that Son literally Gave his deity for us..)

I don't contemplate too terribly hard why Captain Hook both loved and hated Peter Pan. Do you know why? Because I don't fret over make-believe stories.

John 3:16 is just ridiculous. Translated: For god so loved the world that he sacrificed himself to himself to save only a handful of people from a place that he made himself.

Only the most gullible of people buy into this nonsense.
Ask yourself this: If the "one true god" showed up about 2000 years ago, allowing mankind to create all these other "obviously" phony gods for thousands of years, than why pray tell, is your god just like all the rest where blood sacrifice is concerned. Wouldn't the one "true" god be completely and entirely unique??? Why would "the one true god" essentially copy the need for blood sacrifice? Why would he adopt the human creation of blood atonement as his own? How convenient that "the one true god" has a religion nearly identical to every other religion ever created by man, and how coincidental is it that his atonement is the same as everyone elses.

Gullible halfwits ... all of you.

[Mystic]

If it's possible for Jesus to have sinned, how do you know he is not lying to you? You can't say because he is god, because right now, you said god (in human flesh form) can sin.

What if he lied about the whole thing? And there is no atonement, etc...

---

Because that suffering is the product of sin. How can the Product of something unacceptable be may acceptable?

A child born out of wedlock, is born out of something "unacceptable" and is "acceptable", is it not?

In the case of atonement, it would be a product of sin, but God would take as an atonement for sin. I don't see how it being a product of sin would cause a problem.

[Godscreated]

If it's possible for Jesus to have sinned, how do you know he is not lying to you? You can't say because he is god, because right now, you said god (in human flesh form) can sin.

If Christ had sinned He would have known He could not be the perfect sacrifice, so why would He have suffered through the crucifixion? He also would have had to know the Father would not have raised Him from the Grave. There are also many scriptures stating God can not lie.

[Mystic]

If Christ had sinned He would have known He could not be the perfect sacrifice, so why would He have suffered through the crucifixion?

To trick you that he was sinless and make you buy the story that he was the perfect sacrifice.

He also would have had to know the Father would not have raised Him from the Grave.

Well what if he could raise himself being God or 1/3 of God and all?

There are also many scriptures stating God can not lie.

But if God can sin, surely he can lie. So he can be lying about not being able to lie

[The Grand Nudger]

Only the whitest and healthiest of goats can bear all of our burdens on it's back before we slit it's throat, right GC.

[Minimalist]

What was the true price of attonement?

Learning how to spell it?

A-t-o-n-e-m-e-n-t

Now write it 100 times and if its not done by sunrise I'll cut your balls off!

[Drich]

That's stretching it a bit, you wouldn't become the owner of my little farm just because I ate an apple you gave me.

But what if that apple was laced with a substance that was addictive, so much so you would be willing to give the farm up to have just one more?

Now Lets say I didn't want the farm, but would not give you any more "apples" unless you simply wanted something that belonged to your neighbor, and all I wanted in return is for you to fester over how your neighbor did not deserve what he had, 1 hour out of twelve every day and I will let you indulge yourself with as many 'apples' as you wanted..

Next, lets say (your actual dad who gave you the farm) didn't want you fussing over the stuff your neighbor had and he wanted you to work the field 12 hours aday, but I say you unless you fuss over what your neighbor had, just one hour out of 12 You will not be given that 'apple.' Who controls what goes on the Farm?

Physically you do, but I have control over you, as I have what you physically want. So ultimatly I do.

cool story bro.

It's in the bible bra.

Satan could do that?

Yes, or it wouldn't be much of a temptation would it?

He had that power and authority?

Yes. As He is the Father of Sin and Evil, and 'we' are slaves to it He had (Pre death on the Cross) ultimate power and authority over us.

Your godman didn;t see through this shit?

Even after a 40 day fast when His mind and resolve was weak, He appearently did. That i why He told satan to pound sand.

Separating god from jesus does help to turn jesus into the victim in the story, sure. Not sure why you want to do that though, as it makes the story - and your explicit approval of the actions descried therein- even more horrendous.

Can you accept a gift and not know the true cost? Whatever that cost maybe? Wouldn't know said cost help you understand the depht and love it took to give that gift?

I can tell you that it's not temptation if you have the kind of perspective your fellow wolves claim (I appreciate that you believe otherwise). Scapegoaters rarely wish for themselves to be the ones chained to the post, unsurprising. Monstrously evil hypocrites. Ready an willing to torture another for their own inequity, thankful even that it has been done, and glad that they did not have to be the one holding the scourge - but entirely unwilling to subject themselves to the same. The very thought is anethema to the motivations behind vicarious redemption or torture by proxy in the first place.

As bad as mel gibson's protrayal of the passion was, I don't know anyone 'christian' who does not understand that what Jesus went through was orginally reserved for them. That He was made to physically endure a repersentation of what we owe for our sins. Even so what I am suggesting here is that 'punishment' Cost christ alot more than what we/man saw Christ go through.. Or you maybe right who knows what is in the heart of other men, saved or not.

---

(Which is indeed a pretty big deal, God so loved us that He Gave His only Son and that Son literally Gave his deity for us..)

I don't contemplate too terribly hard why Captain Hook both loved and hated Peter Pan. Do you know why? Because I don't fret over make-believe stories.

John 3:16 is just ridiculous. Translated: For god so loved the world that he sacrificed himself to himself to save only a handful of people from a place that he made himself.

Only the most gullible of people buy into this nonsense.
Ask yourself this: If the "one true god" showed up about 2000 years ago, allowing mankind to create all these other "obviously" phony gods for thousands of years, than why pray tell, is your god just like all the rest where blood sacrifice is concerned. Wouldn't the one "true" god be completely and entirely unique??? Why would "the one true god" essentially copy the need for blood sacrifice? Why would he adopt the human creation of blood atonement as his own? How convenient that "the one true god" has a religion nearly identical to every other religion ever created by man, and how coincidental is it that his atonement is the same as everyone elses.

Gullible halfwits ... all of you.

Cinny! i thought you had me on ignore!

So why dose God command a blood sacerfice like all of the other religions?

Lets see if you can stay true to the narritive we are discussing shall we?

Upon finding out that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knoweledge they covered them selves with fig leaves.. Then God made an animal sacerfice and gave them the skins of the animals He slaughtered... So by this account it was God at the Dawn of man who established this ritual, which would mean every other religion copied it in one form or another.

[The Grand Nudger]

But what if that apple was laced with a substance that was addictive, so much so you would be willing to give the farm up to have just one more?

Does the amount of "drich" you have to add to make a analogy seem to work ever occur to you?

Now Lets say I didn't want the farm, but would not give you any more "apples" unless you simply wanted something that belonged to your neighbor

You'd have to take that up with my neighbor.

, and all I wanted in return is for you to fester over how your neighbor did not deserve what he had, 1 hour out of twelve every day and I will let you indulge yourself with as many 'apples' as you wanted..

Sounds like a waste of time. A whole hour worrying about whether or not some douche next door deserved something you wanted?

Next, lets say (your actual dad who gave you the farm) didn't want you fussing over the stuff your neighbor had and he wanted you to work the field 12 hours aday, but I say you unless you fuss over what your neighbor had, just one hour out of 12 You will not be given that 'apple.' Who controls what goes on the Farm?

That would be me, still my farm.

Physically you do, but I have control over you, as I have what you physically want. So ultimatly I do.

But you don't have what I want drich.....

It's in the bible bra.

What isn't?

Yes, or it wouldn't be much of a temptation would it?

Your god sounds slightly less unique and immenently less powerful all of a sudden.

Yes. As He is the Father of Sin and Evil, and 'we' are slaves to it He had (Pre death on the Cross) ultimate power and authority over us.

You may be, I'm not.

Even after a 40 day fast when His mind and resolve was weak, He appearently did. That i why He told satan to pound sand.

Godman gets fatigued...meh, not worth the time. If your godman could see through it how tempting could it have been. Drich...again, this doesn't even sound very tempting to me...and I'm not godman....

Can you accept a gift and not know the true cost? Whatever that cost maybe? Wouldn't know said cost help you understand the depht and love it took to give that gift?

Sure, I don't ask people what they pay for some gift they give me, but you don't have to ask in this case - you've been told-, and if someone told me that they paid in scapegoating, I'd refuse the "gift". Love, no, there's no love there, if someone is offering me that.

As bad as mel gibson's protrayal of the passion was, I don't know anyone 'christian' who does not understand that what Jesus went through was orginally reserved for them. That He was made to physically endure a repersentation of what we owe for our sins. Even so what I am suggesting here is that 'punishment' Cost christ alot more than what we/man saw Christ go through.. Or you maybe right who knows what is in the heart of other men, saved or not.

I know whats in your heart scapegoater, but only because you feel compelled to fawn over it constantly.

[Drich]

If it's possible for Jesus to have sinned, how do you know he is not lying to you? You can't say because he is god, because right now, you said god (in human flesh form) can sin.

If Jesus was not in the Will of the Father would the Father Have supported His miricals? No.

What if he lied about the whole thing? And there is no atonement, etc...

Then we are no better than non-pig eating muslims. What do you want me to say? Your question is based on a lying God. If your god is a liar then all bets are off.

A child born out of wedlock, is born out of something "unacceptable" and is "acceptable", is it not?

Being born in or out of wed lock is not a sin eitherway.

In the case of atonement, it would be a product of sin, but God would take as an atonement for sin. I don't see how it being a product of sin would cause a problem.

How is attonement a sin?

---

What was the true price of attonement?

Learning how to spell it?

A-t-o-n-e-m-e-n-t

Now write it 100 times and if its not done by sunrise I'll cut your balls off!

Is that how your avatar lost his 'marbles?'