The price of attonement???

[Cinjin]

Cinny! i thought you had me on ignore!

I've never said any such thing, nor have I ever implied it. If you feel that I have ignored you it is only because your spelling and grammar are so terribly atrocious. As a moderator for this site, I cannot put anyone on Ignore, no matter how ignorant and full of buffoonery they may be.

So why dose God command a blood sacerfice like all of the other religions?

Lets see if you can stay true to the narritive we are discussing shall we?

Upon finding out that Adam and Eve ate of the fruit of the tree of knoweledge they covered them selves with fig leaves.. Then God made an animal sacerfice and gave them the skins of the animals He slaughtered... So by this account it was God at the Dawn of man who established this ritual, which would mean every other religion copied it in one form or another.

That's hilarious. Just because some ass-hat decided to write his version of the beginning of time down in a book, doesn't mean that those events actually happened prior to the rest of the world's existence. Don't be obtuse. Tell you what, I'm going to write my version of the beginning of the world in a notebook, bury it in the ground, and in five thousand years, maybe some gullible fucktard will go around telling people that the world obviously was created according to my record.

[Drich]

On the first point, any god that intentionally plays a silly game of do you love me enough is obviously sociopathic.

On the second point, that whole god is unchanging spiel is untrue. If one reads the bible, god does change. In fact, he went from being a psychotic tyrant in the old testament to a hippie socialist as jesus in the new testament.

Still the same God. For the God you are describing is the same God who provided for one to attone for sins then and now. The only difference is Christ was the perfect attonement and the blood of animals would only go so far. Without what Christ did, God would still be the OT God.

[The Grand Nudger]

I love how your ultimate thoughts on the matter is that my heart is hardened. What a copout. You've failed to convey the love you claim to see, the love you imply is so obvious and apparent. My heart isn't hardened. You're incompetent. Try not to confuse the two.

[Drich]

What about the magicians who did their own magic?

What are some of the names of those first centry magicians you speak of? Where is the documentation of their deeds? Where is the silence scrunity of the religious leaders of that day?
The reason none of it exists is because those who live at that time debunked any claims to deity. Remember to record something and to perserve it then was a very expensive undertaking. something not to be waisted on the trivial or questionable.

What about Satan who does what he wants now?

He doesn't do what he wants now. Even when he had free reign he still had to run it all past God. Read the book of Job for confirmation.

Why would God allow Satan respite to lead astray people but not allow Jesus if Jesus gave in to temptations?

Satan was playing a role, and is bound/limited to the degree he can play it. Christ power and authority Comes from the Father, He is doing the Father's will.

Also, what if the "Father" was in on it. If the son can sin, surely the father can as well, after all, they both have free-will right?

what would be the point? If it is all some trick then we are all doomed like the muslims anyway.

Moving the goalposts. You said "how can result of something unacceptable be acceptable?"

Then you made the assertion being born is a sin. Which it is not. The goal posts have not moved you do not seem to understand their placement.

But if God reacts with mercy and compassion (attonement), you don't see it as result of sin?

No, why? Because sin is Choice. You understand God to be uncontroled emotional mess who is lead around by his hatred of sin.

I see a God who distains sin, but allows us the oppertunity to sin in order for us to make a choice (where we want to spend eternity), but the very act of choosing disqualifies any choice we make. Enter Jesus and his attonement, now the plan is complete. God gives us the ablity to Choose in the garden and also attones for the sin we commit when making our choice.

---

I love how your ultimate thoughts on the matter is that my heart is hardened. What a copout. You've failed to convey the love you claim to see, the love you imply is so obvious and apparent. My heart isn't hardened. You're incompetent. Try not to confuse the two.

You admitted that you can not see love here. I can only go so far as what the bible states or defines as an act of love. To which I did and you defined this acts as some appauling, cop out, blame someone else crap thing.. In short you did not see the love in what God did here. If you can't then know God is hiding from you, and there is nothing I can do to help you find Him. At this point whether you understand this precept/God's love is completely on you. God offers you like everyone else an oppertunity, if you take it your eyes will be opened, if you don't your heart will only be further hardened.

[ThomM]

What was the true price of attonement?

Attone for WHAT?

Once you understand that the stories of genesis are Fairy Tales - there is NO reason for a messiah.
And once you realize that the christ FAILED to fulfill the prophecies of - and actually could NOT be the jewish messiah - to begin with - the whole story falls apart.

Example - THe Roman Empire was based on law - and they ONLY crucified Traitors - Pirates - and enemies of the State. So - the story of the crucifixion with a thief next to him - is nonsense - they sent thieves to the lions. THey even sent competing religious to the lions as well.

[The Grand Nudger]

You admitted that you can not see love here. I can only go so far as what the bible states or defines as an act of love. To which I did and you defined this acts as some appauling, cop out, blame someone else crap thing.. In short you did not see the love in what God did here. If you can't then know God is hiding from you, and there is nothing I can do to help you find Him. At this point whether you understand this precept/God's love is completely on you. God offers you like everyone else an oppertunity, if you take it your eyes will be opened, if you don't your heart will only be further hardened.

There's that incompetence rearing it's ugly head again. It isn't that I -couldn't- see love there Drich, I'm bluntly stating that there isn't any there to see. Now obviously, I can't blame you for not knowing much about me....but I've been married twice, I loved (and still love) both of my wives. Hell, I can't think of any girlfriend I've ever had that I didn't love. I have 5 children that I love dearly (one that I haven't seen or spoken to in in nearly a decade). I love my friends, even Lilly........, I have a large family, I love them too. In fact, I don't think I could throw a pebble without hitting some love. I'm surrounded by it, I find it easy to return, I see it everywhere...........you know where I don't see it? Uh huh. Again, try not to confuse your incompetence with my ability to see love where love is present. Your hideous little snuff tale just doesn't do it for me. I suppose this is just another shining example of where the words of your almighty god are utterly and completely hollow. How your spirit (and you) managed to fuck this one up...is frankly ,beyond me. To really drive this home. None of this love I see, or my seeing it all over the place, is anything I can even remotely describe as virtuous or somehow unique to me. It seems - in my experience - to be business as usual. Something that just runs on autopilot for the vast majority of us...which makes me wonder what sort of malfunction you're laboring under - that would cause you to invent a god with such a faulty psyche, such a cruel and contemptible concept of love.

[Silver]

Still the same God.

It is interesting that, for the sake of maintaining blind faith in your belief, you completely skipped over the fact that god did change from one testament to the other.

[Ryantology]

There's that incompetence rearing it's ugly head again. It isn't that I -couldn't- see love there Drich, I'm bluntly stating that there isn't any there to see. Now obviously, I can't blame you for not knowing much about me....but I've been married twice, I loved (and still love) both of my wives. Hell, I can't think of any girlfriend I've ever had that I didn't love. I have 5 children that I love dearly (one that I haven't seen or spoken to in in nearly a decade). I love my friends, even Lilly........, I have a large family, I love them too. In fact, I don't think I could throw a pebble without hitting some love. I'm surrounded by it, I find it easy to return, I see it everywhere...........you know where I don't see it? Uh huh. Again, try not to confuse your incompetence with my ability to see love where love is present. Your hideous little snuff tale just doesn't do it for me. I suppose this is just another shining example of where the words of your almighty god are utterly and completely hollow. How your spirit (and you) managed to fuck this one up...is frankly ,beyond me. To really drive this home. None of this love I see, or my seeing it all over the place, is anything I can even remotely describe as virtuous or somehow unique to me. It seems - in my experience - to be business as usual. Something that just runs on autopilot for the vast majority of us...which makes me wonder what sort of malfunction you're laboring under - that would cause you to invent a god with such a faulty psyche, such a cruel and contemptible concept of love.

Bravo for this post.

What sort of God is capable of creating humans who can love without condition, yet cannot (or refuses to) love without condition himself. A god capable of unconditional love is a god who has no need to create a hell, or anything like it. It is probably for that reason, perhaps above a lot of the empirical ones, that I feel certain that the Christian god is a miserably poor human invention.

I am a better lover than God. I suspect most people outside of the prison population (and a lot of them inside) are better lovers than God.

[Mystic]

What sort of God is capable of creating humans who can love without condition, yet cannot (or refuses to) love without condition himself. A god capable of unconditional love is a god who has no need to create a hell, or anything like it. It is probably for that reason, perhaps above a lot of the empirical ones, that I feel certain that the Christian god is a miserably poor human invention.

I am a better lover than God. I suspect most people outside of the prison population (and a lot of them inside) are better lovers than God.

But a person for example can state it's evil to love people like Hitler or Stalin or Saddam...and that love where appropriate and hate where appropriate is the right approach. That unconditional love is not right.

I think emotionally, it is had to decipher which view is right. To love unconditionally or hate to evil people like Hitler or Saddam.

However, when we apply logic, it seems to favour unconditional love. I've shown why in the thread against hell.

One more reasoning I haven't shown goes through a syllogism like this:

God and people ought to be happy when evil person changes from evil to good.
This means they ought to have wished good for the evil person (compassionate love) from before.
This means they ought to have compassionate love towards an evil person.
Therefore it's a contradiction to say we ought to totally hate an evil person and wish evil upon them at any moment.

However, I wouldn't say a person hating evil people like Saddam are being bad or doing something immoral. It's just misguided and we need to apply rationality to our principles to decide which of the two decisions is better.

However to some it will seem automatically more beautiful to have compassion.

---

What are some of the names of those first centry magicians you speak of? Where is the documentation of their deeds? Where is the silence scrunity of the religious leaders of that day?

The magicians of the Pharaoh, the ones who did some magic in reply to the miracles of Moses.

He doesn't do what he wants now. Even when he had free reign he still had to run it all past God. Read the book of Job for confirmation.

And Jesus would have a limited time to do what he wants, and can't do everything he wants either. So what's your point? What about the Anti-Christ? Isn't he suppose to do some miracles?

Satan was playing a role, and is bound/limited to the degree he can play it. Christ power and authority Comes from the Father, He is doing the Father's will.

Originally, Satan was an Angel following will of God. I don't see how you have shown it's not possible the father allows Jesus to do what he wants for a limited time. Perhaps he is also given limits.

what would be the point? If it is all some trick then we are all doomed like the muslims anyway.

Or maybe nobody is doomed but they are getting fun out of people believing the notion (which seems silly). Or maybe it's a trial (testing people's intelligence, integrity, etc).

Then you made the assertion being born is a sin. Which it is not. The goal posts have not moved you do not seem to understand their placement.

Ok what I was trying to say is how the child is acceptable, but sex out of wedlock is unacceptable.

But if God reacts with mercy and compassion (attonement), you don't see it as result of sin?

No, why? Because sin is Choice. You understand God to be uncontroled emotional mess who is lead around by his hatred of sin.

I see a God who distains sin, but allows us the oppertunity to sin in order for us to make a choice (where we want to spend eternity), but the very act of choosing disqualifies any choice we make. Enter Jesus and his attonement, now the plan is complete. God gives us the ablity to Choose in the garden and also attones for the sin we commit when making our choice.

Here is the deal Drich. You are saying suffering as a punishment is a result of sin, from the perspective it's God implementing his wrath. But you say suffering atonement cannot be as a result of sin, from the perspective it's God implementing compassion and forgiveness.

You don't see double standards here? Just say you don't agree with the latter, but don't make up things like "how can something acceptable be the result of something unacceptable?".

[Ryantology]

But a person for example can state it's evil to love people like Hitler or Stalin or Saddam...and that love where appropriate and hate where appropriate is the right approach. That unconditional love is not right.

I would not begrudge the mothers of these men to love their sons in spite of how terrible they were. Nor would I be strictly opposed to the idea of God dealing out a punishment suitable to their crimes, that is something a loving parent will do, as well, but a loving parent does it in the interest of helping the child better his or her behavior. I guess we'll have to ignore the implications of an omnipotent God doing nothing to stop any of these men.

I think emotionally, it is had to decipher which view is right. To love unconditionally or hate to evil people like Hitler or Saddam.

I don't think so, because it is contextual. I don't expect anybody to love these men, not even a parent or loved one. I would not be surprised if a parent or loved one loved these men in spite of their crimes.

What is startling about the Christian God is that he doesn't care about crimes. What matters to God is whether or not you do exactly as he tells you to do. God equates love with obedience to him, and that is his only criteria for salvation. It's hard to tell whether God would embrace Hitler and Stalin as humanity's best expressions of his own viewpoints and behavior, or whether he would punish them for being competition. But, for God to not love these men, unconditionally, is an indictment on his own perfection, because he created them and he is ultimately responsible for everything they did.