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The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
#1
The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
Each of the four gospels records the discovery of the empty tomb with significant differences.

First version in Matthew: At dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary encounter an angel outside the tomb that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Second version in Mark: Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome enter the tomb and saw a young man that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell Peter and his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Third version in Luke: Very early in the morning, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them enter the tomb and saw two men that tell them Jesus is risen. They return to inform the apostles. Peter goes to the tomb and sees the burial linens.

Fourth version in John: While it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, sees that it's open and runs to inform Simon peter and John that someone has taken to body of Jesus. Simon Peter and John run to the tomb and find the burial linens and cloth.

In each Gospel the time of day is slightly different. Mary Magdalene is either alone or with different people. Mary Magdalene doesn't enter the tomb, or she does enter the tomb. Mary Magdalene either assumes the body has been stolen, or is told by an angel outside the tomb Jesus is risen, or told by a young boy inside the tomb Jesus is risen, or told by two men inside the tomb Jesus is risen.

So what really happened?

The Christian solution is to say the Bible is the inherent word of God, all of it happened. Each Gospel is supplying us with additional details, and combined we get the whole story. Obviously the logical mind takes a few issues with the Christian solution. For instance why did Mary Magdalene tell Simon Peter and John that Jesus' body had been stolen if she was also told by an angel and 3 men that Jesus had risen? From the Christian perspective these are insignificant details next to the news Jesus has risen. Jesus having risen is probably the most important event in Christianity.The Christian mind is already abandoning logic to believe a dead man can be resurrected three days later, so its not hard to also ignore the lack of logic in a few insignificant details.

The authors of the Gospels didn't make any mistakes. The John version states "while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb." In the original Greek this line could be read as it's written or it could be read as follows: "in religious ignorance, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb."

There are two stories being told, one for those that live in religious ignorance, and the other for the logically minded reader.

The logical version is also an intelligence test of sorts. Part of the test is simply to realize that there is a test. The second part is to combine the four Gospels in such a way that the story makes logical sense.

The key character in each Gospel is Mary Magdalene. Its logically impossible for Mary Magdalene to have gone through all the events described. According to the bible Mary was a very popular name. At least nine Marys appear in the new testament, plus a Martha (Aramaic version of Mary) who also happens to have a sister named Mary. For the simple minded reader that's enough Marys, but the logical reader needs to realize there are more. Another way to say Mary Magdalene would be "Mary from the town of Magdala." Any woman named Mary, from the town of Magdala, can be referred to as "Mary Magdalene." So we don't have just one Mary Magdalene, we have four.

Another hurdle is to make sense of the different positions of the sun.
in Matthew: At dawn
in Mark: Very early... , just after sunrise
in Luke: Very early
in John: While it was still dark

For the simple minded reader this all happens within 15 minutes, close enough when you're about to hear about Jesus resurrecting. The logical reader needs to solve this problem. Fortunately the authors left the solution in plain sight. They actually hid it within the problem. When did these events take place? It's exactly as the Gospels say. John starts the story "while it was still dark". Matthew adds new characters "at dawn". Mark adds more characters "very early... , just after sunrise". Luke adds more "very early".

By identifying John's Gospel as the start of the story, and adding the other Gospels to it in order, the logical reader can finally read the entire story as it was meant to be read. Without the cloud of religious ignorance, and in a perfectly logical stream of events.

John 20:1 Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2 So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, “They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don’t know where they have put him!” 3 So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4 Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first.

I'll explain why the tomb was already open later.

It was dark when the story started, Mary Magdalene #1 has walked to and ran from the tomb, she has informed Simon Peter and John that the body is gone, Simon Peter and John have run back to the tomb. It's not unreasonable to assume that while Simon Peter and John are running to the tomb the sun is also dawning. "At dawn" signals the introduction of Matthew's Gospel to the story.

Matthew28:1 After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.2 There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3 His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4 The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.

While Mary Magdalene #2 and the other Mary are headed towards the tomb they feel the ground shake and see an angel headed for the tomb. Simon Peter and John were running with such ferocity that it shook the ground and the two Marys caught a glimpse of the slower runner and mistook him for an angel. They also assume that the shaking ground is related to the tomb being opened, but we learned in John that the tomb was already opened when the first Mary Magdalene visited the tomb. Keep in mind these women have been crying and are still traumatized by the crucifixion.The guards have probably been drinking too.

Now we get a little more information from John.

John 20:5 He (John) bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6 Then Simon Peter came along behind him and went straight into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7 as well as the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus’ head. The cloth was still lying in its place, separate from the linen.

So at this point John is outside and Simon Peter is inside the tomb, and both men have seen the burial linens. We can assume at this point that both men believe Jesus is risen.

Now we add the rest of Matthew.

Matthew 28:5 The angel (really John) said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6 He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7 Then go quickly and tell his disciples: ‘He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.’ Now I have told you.”
8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples.


Mary Magdalene #2 and the other Mary arrive at the tomb and mistake John as a second angel. They hear from him the good news, and run to tell the disciples

We can also add the Gospel of Mark shortly after we introduced Matthew.

Mark16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3 and they asked each other, “Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?”
4 But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5 As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.


Mary Magdalene #3, Mary the mother of James, and Salome. Walk past the two Marys that are talking to the "angel" (John), and enter the tomb to see a young man (Simon Peter).

Mark 16:6 “Don’t be alarmed,” he said. “You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.’”
8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.


Now we go a little further into the Gospel of John

John 20:8 Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9 (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Now both Simon Peter and John are in the tomb. This is when we add the Gospel of Luke.

Luke 24:1 On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2 They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3 but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4 While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5 In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, “Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6 He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7 ‘The Son of Man must be delivered over to the hands of sinners, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.’ ” 8 Then they remembered his words.

The two men the women encounter inside the tomb are Simon Peter and John. After hearing the news the women leave.

John20:10 Then the disciples went back to where they were staying.

Everyone has gone from the tomb, and we continue from Luke.

Luke 24: 9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

Now we run into a couple possible logic problems. First, hasn't Mary the mother James already made her appearance with Mary Magdalene #2 in the gospel of Mark? The characters introduced by Mark were Mary Magdalene #2, Mary the mother of James, and Salome. Is Salome a third character at the tomb or is Salome a sibling of James? Let's assume the latter, and let's also assume this is how we are to distinguish between the two Marys that have children named James, the Mary from Mark also has a second child named Salome.

The second problem is that Mary Magdalene #4, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them "tell all these things to the Eleven and to all the others." If the Eleven are the remaining apostles (Judas is dead), why did they all not believe the women? Simon Peter and John have been to the tomb and believe Jesus has risen. Notice "Eleven" is capitalized but "apostles" isn't. Lets just assume the Eleven are group separate from the apostles. When carefully read the entire passage can now make sense. It can be simplified further by moving Luke 24:10 to after Luke 24:12 Read the passage again with the alterations made

Luke 24: 9 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 11 But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12 Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.

In other words "Mary Magdalene #4, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them" have informed the apostles that they told "the Eleven and to all the others" what happened at the tomb, but "the Eleven and the others" did not believe the women. Then either one of the "Eleven" or one of "all the others" named Peter, travels to the tomb, sees the linens, and leaves.

Now we can finish the Gospel of Luke part of the story.

Luke 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.
17 He asked them, “What are you discussing together as you walk along?”
They stood still, their faces downcast. 18 One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, “Are you the only one visiting Jerusalem who does not know the things that have happened there in these days?”
19 “What things?” he asked.
“About Jesus of Nazareth,” they replied. “He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. 20 The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21 but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22 In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23 but didn’t find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24 Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus.”


The significant passages are Luke 24:22-24. Only one group of women had seen a vision of angels. From Matthews Gospel: Mary Magdalene #2, and the other Mary had mistaken Simon Peter for an angel while traveling to the tomb, and once they arrived at the tomb they mistook John for an angel. Matthews Gospel ends by saying "Matthew 28:8 So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples." Cleopas and the other he was traveling with have to be two disciples Mary Magdalene #2 and the other Mary have told of the resurrection. Cleopas also informs us that after the disciples were told the news "some of our(Cleopas and the other he was traveling with) companions (two more disciples) went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but they did not see Jesus."

Now two more disciples have gone to the tomb.

Now a little more from the Gospel of John.

John 20:11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.


Mary Magdalene #1 has returned to the tomb, looks into the tomb and mistakes the two companions from Luke for angels.

Now we conclude the story.

John20:13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”
“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”


That concludes the story of what happened at the empty tomb. The logically inclined mind should still see a few problems with this story. I've left out a very important piece. How was the tomb opened? The logical reader knows no angels were involved, which doesn't matter because the tomb was opened before the "angel" could have opened it anyway. Also why is the body of Jesus not in the tomb? Dead men don't walk.

Like a good investigator we need to look at all the clues. First step is to examine the crime scene, the empty tomb. If you've been paying close attention you already know the empty tomb isn't exactly empty. In the Gospel of John we learned that John was the first to look inside the cave and saw the strips of linen, next Simon Peter saw the strips of linen and the cloth that had been wrapped around Jesus' head. In the Gospel of Luke we learned that Peter (one of the Eleven or one of the others) also saw the strips of linen.

At this point the reader needs to be aware of a previous story in the Gospel of John, an event that took place the same week Jesus was entombed, the rising of Lazarus.

John 11:38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 “Take away the stone,” he said.
“But, Lord,” said Martha, the sister of the dead man, “by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.”
40 Then Jesus said, “Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?”
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.”
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, “Lazarus, come out!” 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, “Take off the grave clothes and let him go.”


At the end of that story we have a tomb that contains strips of linen, and a burial cloth.

It's important to note Lazarus' home was in Bethany. Bethany was located just outside Jerusalem on the mount of Olives. Jesus was crucified at Golgotha. Golgotha is also just outside Jerusalem. Its safe to assume Jesus' tomb and Lazarus' tomb are near each other.

So now you know why the tomb Mary Magdalene #1 found was already opened. It wasn't Jesus' tomb at all! In the dark, emotional over the crucifixion, Mary Magdalene #1 stumbled onto Lazarus' empty tomb and unknowingly triggers a comedy of errors. A series of events that lead all the women that visited the tomb, his disciples (the people told by Mary Magdalene #2), the Eleven and the others (the people told by Mary Magdalene #4), and the apostles (also told by Mary Magdalene #4) into believing Jesus has risen. In an even more ironic twist of faith Mary Magdalene #1 herself becomes a victim of the events she triggered, when she returns to the tomb she herself sees two angels (the companions of Cleopas) who tell her of Jesus' resurrection.

So Jesus' tomb has remained undisturbed. He's a dead man doing dead man things in a sealed tomb.

One last logic problem. After seeing the "angels" Mary Magdalene #1 turns around and sees Jesus.

So back to the end of the resurrection Story in John.

John 20:11 Now Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12 and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus’ body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13 They asked her, “Woman, why are you crying?”
“They have taken my Lord away,” she said, “and I don’t know where they have put him.” 14 At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.
15 He asked her, “Woman, why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?”
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him.”


She saw Jesus standing there, but did not realize it was Jesus. She thinks he's the gardener. Why is she unable to recognize Jesus?

Because the Jesus she knows is dead in his tomb! "The Gardener" has taken the place of Jesus.

Now you know the solution to the puzzle of the empty tomb.

The solution to the puzzle of the empty tomb actually reveals a new puzzle that needs to be solved.

Who is this "Gardener" that has replaced Jesus?

I hope long posts aren't frowned upon.

I welcome any comments
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#2
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
All I know is I get to eat chocolate all day and nobody gives me funny looks. Best say ever.


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#3
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
(March 30, 2013 at 3:43 am)Smotts Wrote: Each of the four gospels records the discovery of the empty tomb with significant differences.

First version in Matthew: At dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary encounter an angel outside the tomb that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Second version in Mark: Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome enter the tomb and saw a young man that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell Peter and his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Third version in Luke: Very early in the morning, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them enter the tomb and saw two men that tell them Jesus is risen. They return to inform the apostles. Peter goes to the tomb and sees the burial linens.

Fourth version in John: While it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, sees that it's open and runs to inform Simon peter and John that someone has taken to body of Jesus. Simon Peter and John run to the tomb and find the burial linens and cloth.

Only Luke and John say the tomb was inspected and found empty. Matthew and Mark only say some stranger claimed it was empty.

Quote:So what really happened?

The folks who invented to stories weren't singing out of the same hymnal.
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#4
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
@ Smotts welcome to the forum, you are easily confused aren't you, the four stories are in themselves defeating to your analysis.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#5
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
Quote:The Christian solution is to say the Bible is the inherent word of God, all of it happened. Each Gospel is supplying us with additional details, and combined we get the whole story.

People have to be incredibly stupid to actually believe this shit....witness, G-C, above.
Reply
#6
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
(March 30, 2013 at 7:41 pm)Godschild Wrote: @ Smotts welcome to the forum, you are easily confused aren't you, the four stories are in themselves defeating to your analysis.

The four stories are mutually contradictory. At most only one of them can be true.

If you disagree, put all four together into a single story that leaves out nothing and contains no contradictory elements.
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#7
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
(March 30, 2013 at 3:43 am)Smotts Wrote: Each of the four gospels records the discovery of the empty tomb with significant differences.

First version in Matthew: At dawn, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary encounter an angel outside the tomb that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Second version in Mark: Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome enter the tomb and saw a young man that tells them Jesus has risen, and they should go tell Peter and his disciples they'll find him in Galilee.

Third version in Luke: Very early in the morning, Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them enter the tomb and saw two men that tell them Jesus is risen. They return to inform the apostles. Peter goes to the tomb and sees the burial linens.

Fourth version in John: While it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb, sees that it's open and runs to inform Simon peter and John that someone has taken to body of Jesus. Simon Peter and John run to the tomb and find the burial linens and cloth.

In each Gospel the time of day is slightly different. Mary Magdalene is either alone or with different people. Mary Magdalene doesn't enter the tomb, or she does enter the tomb. Mary Magdalene either assumes the body has been stolen, or is told by an angel outside the tomb Jesus is risen, or told by a young boy inside the tomb Jesus is risen, or told by two men inside the tomb Jesus is risen.

So what really happened?

I welcome any comments


This is simply more proof that the bible is a book of fiction - because the people writing the stories that ended up in it failed to even check their stories with others - and those who put together the fairy tales failed to properly edit to assure continuity.

So - the Question is -= "What really happened"

Nothing - it isn't real

THe christ is a religious MYTH =- no more real than Hercules - or Zeus - and certainly not as real as an Egyptian Pharaoh as well.

AS far as your explanation - it is meaningless conjecture on a fictional story.

Harry Potter saved us from Voldemort - what day should we put aside to celebrate Harry?

James Bond saved us from Dr. No. What day should we put aside to celebrate James?
Reply
#8
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
On the one hand we have xtian shitwits like G-C and on the other we have Bart Ehrman.






No contest.
Reply
#9
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
TL;DR
"Never trust a fox. Looks like a dog, behaves like a cat."
~ Erin Hunter
Reply
#10
RE: The Puzzle of the Empty Tomb
(March 31, 2013 at 1:14 pm)ThomM Wrote: This is simply more proof that the bible is a book of fiction - because the people writing the stories that ended up in it failed to even check their stories with others - and those who put together the fairy tales failed to properly edit to assure continuity.

Yes, Jesus is a fictional character, but the authors were real. The authors either knew they were writing fiction, or they thought they were recording real events.

If they thought they were recording history, then the gospels are just a load of crap.

If they knew they were writing fiction, they authored a work that successfully convinced billions of people to willfully follow their directions. Think about that.

They created a God that tells his followers to "give Caesar what is Caesar's" (pay your taxes) and "whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two" when a soldier conscripts you to carry his pack for one mile you should carry it for two (be a good citizen of the empire).

Is it unreasonable to assume they would have left a few clues, a way to inform posterity of the genius of their creation? They did. The puzzle of the empty tomb is just one of those clues. Combined the clues reveal who the authors are, why, and how they created Christianity. They also reveal their hatred of the Jews who were the first victims of Christianity. Most of the clues include a comedic element, a way of poking fun at those not intelligent enough, or too blinded by religious ignorance to see the truth.

The joke in the puzzle of the empty tomb is apparent. Religious ignorance triggers a comedy of errors that convinces all of Jesus' followers that he's been resurrected.

The authors of the Gospels were geniuses, if they left a message for people not blinded by religious ignorance you'd do well to learn it.
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