Sign in Quran

[paulpablo]

I understand what you mean, but I would have thought during the 7th century on a continent with many high mountainous regions (the highest mountain on earth in fact mt everest isn't far from india) people would have been aware that when you climb high, oxygen becomes depleted. Well not that oxygen becomes depleted, but that your chest feels tight when you climb high.

I don't think it would be right to say no one ever climbed a mountain or knew about high altitude in the 7th century.

By the way I don't enjoy debunking the quran, if I thought it was miraculous I'd look more into it, but I have seen nothing miraculous in the quran.

Actually shouldn't it better for the verse to say, He makes his breast tight and constricted as though he were climbing to the top of mountain. Because climbing into the sky was likely something impossible even if we just give a thought about it.

You guys always asked an evidence about God, how about I asked you any simple evidence that someone/race from or before 7th century, whom has climbed to the top of mountain and go to the desert just to share that his breast become tight and constricted (sign of less pressure right) as if he were climbing to the top. (well, actually you have to climb real high just to feel the symptom right).

Anyways, how about verse 24:45? I always fascinated with this verse, and sometimes I want to know other's thought about it.

If mountains reach the sky why would it have been impossible for them to climb into the sky in the 7th century, or at least high enough for them to feel some effect? Also you said the quran describes things how a 7th century person would understand, but now you're claiming a 7th century person wouldn't understand this metaphor, so would they or would they not understand? It seems strange that you claim they couldn't have known this, so then how would the metaphor have been understood?

I don't think a single man would go from being in a mountain then run to the desert and tell muhammad about the effects he had just felt but information doesn't need to pass directly from one person to another, people in rome knew that england existed in ancient times but it would have been from established knowledge and learning rather than one man running to england then running back again and saying hey englands over that way. I just personally find it hard to believe that for 5000 years or whatever before muhammad no one ever climbed a mountain and reported feeling difficulty breathing.

So simply put do I find it a divine undeniale miracle that someone in the 7th century knew that it got difficult to breath when you get higher? No not really.

Just let me make it clear again that I don't enjoy debunking the quran but this isn't even debunking the quran. I don't believe the quran has even set out to establish that this knowledge is miraculous, it seems simple to me that this is a clear metaphor actually designed so people would understand it. Its describing how god puts belief into people who he wants and he constricts the chest of those who he doesn't want as if they were climbing high, its actually spoken as if people DO already know about it. Rather then saying hey this book is definitely made by god because we know about how its difficult for humans to breath when they get near the sky.

If muhammad had ever seen snakes birds and dogs then verse 24 45 isnt miraculous either.

[remy]

If mountains reach the sky why would it have been impossible for them to climb into the sky in the 7th century, or at least high enough for them to feel some effect? Also you said the quran describes things how a 7th century person would understand, but now you're claiming a 7th century person wouldn't understand this metaphor, so would they or would they not understand? It seems strange that you claim they couldn't have known this, so then how would the metaphor have been understood?

Yes I might have said quran describes things based on 7th century understanding, they understand the constricted feeling, they know what is sky but they wouldn't understand that it's the sign of losing ability to inhale more oxygen because they wouldn't know what oxygen is. That's what I mean that it has to be revealed based on the understandable terms.

But where do I claim that they wouldn't understand this metaphor, because my question was why a 'climbing into the sky' while it should just simply say 'climbing higher'.

I don't think a single man would go from being in a mountain then run to the desert and tell muhammad about the effects he had just felt but information doesn't need to pass directly from one person to another, people in rome knew that england existed in ancient times but it would have been from established knowledge and learning rather than one man running to england then running back again and saying hey englands over that way. I just personally find it hard to believe that for 5000 years or whatever before muhammad no one ever climbed a mountain and reported feeling difficulty breathing.

okay, let us just say we couldn't provide any factual evidence if this is just some usual knowledge of that century..

Just let me make it clear again that I don't enjoy debunking the quran but this isn't even debunking the quran. I don't believe the quran has even set out to establish that this knowledge is miraculous, it seems simple to me that this is a clear metaphor actually designed so people would understand it. Its describing how god puts belief into people who he wants and he constricts the chest of those who he doesn't want as if they were climbing high, its actually spoken as if people DO already know about it. Rather then saying hey this book is definitely made by god because we know about how its difficult for humans to breath when they get near the sky.

I am sorry if i am saying you are b4. I just wanna know about your opinion regarding some 'vague' verse. I am actually not claiming anything miraculous either. Because miracle is usually defined as something magical.

If muhammad had ever seen snakes birds and dogs then verse 24 45 isnt miraculous either.

Explanation. I just want to hear your opinion. And how about verse 25:54.

From out of the blue, instead of blood or soil why water?

[paulpablo]

Yes I might have said quran describes things based on 7th century understanding, they understand the constricted feeling, they know what is sky but they wouldn't understand that it's the sign of losing ability to inhale more oxygen because they wouldn't know what oxygen is. That's what I mean that it has to be revealed based on the understandable terms.

Well I guess the question is could muhammad have had knowledge of mountains and the effects of climbing high? The answer is definitely yes he could have because there are mountains in the middle east. Therefore the verse isn't a clear miracle it just creates the question, who told muhammad that climbing high creates breathlessness, was it from the knowledge of people who live in mountainous regions and common knowledge of people in general or from a supernatural being?

Additionally just something about what happens to the chest cavity in high altitude.

Air moves from areas of higher pressure to lower pressure. As your diaphragm (the muscle that separates your chest cavity from your abdominal cavity) moves downward, the size of your chest cavity increases. This decreases the pressure in your chest and air flows in. When the diaphragm is up, it puts pressure on the chest cavity and the pressure in the lungs is greater than outside the lungs.

The size of the chest cavity actually increases rather then becomes closed and constricted.
This other verse

Allah has created every moving (living) creature from water. Of them there are some that creep on their bellies, some that walk on two legs, and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills. Verily! Allah is Able to do all things.

As I said if Muhammad saw a snake, a bird or a dog that pretty much covers all the animals.

And you say why does it say water and not say blood or soil?

92:6
Has created man from a clot (a piece of thick coagulated blood).

15:28
And (remember) when thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am creating a mortal out of potter's clay of black mud altered,


15:26
And We did certainly create man out of clay from an altered black mud.

[Zen Badger]

How about containing some scientific principle that we haven't discovered yet.
And the reading of your hypothetical book causes scientists to go and develop that principle.

I notice that all the scientific "discoveries" in the Quran came well after the scientists had done all the real work.

And that the passages that apparently encode some scientific principle are so vague that they could be construed to mean anything.

Okay let say that we lived in 14th century, where most of scientific discoveries is yet to be discovered. What kind of principle do you wish to be in the holy book.

p / s : I believed, that a sign couldn't be too scientific or else, only highly intelligent quotient people able to understand it... And Quran's vagueness, I believe has been questioned over the ages, thus the book itself made a clear statement about it. [Refer Quran 3:7]

He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Completely meaningless statement, I thought your god was omnipotetent, so therfore he would have had no problem putting something in the quaran that lead men to make major discoveries.
Even something as simple as penicillin being found in mould.
But nothing, nothing that is apart from the 7th century rantings of an manipulative paedophile.

[remy]

Yes I might have said quran describes things based on 7th century understanding, they understand the constricted feeling, they know what is sky but they wouldn't understand that it's the sign of losing ability to inhale more oxygen because they wouldn't know what oxygen is. That's what I mean that it has to be revealed based on the understandable terms.

Well I guess the question is could muhammad have had knowledge of mountains and the effects of climbing high? The answer is definitely yes he could have because there are mountains in the middle east. Therefore the verse isn't a clear miracle it just creates the question, who told muhammad that climbing high creates breathlessness, was it from the knowledge of people who live in mountainous regions and common knowledge of people in general or from a supernatural being?

Okay, I agreed with you then. Thanks for the opinion. =) If I still remember, I never said anything about miracle throughout my writing here. Only once, I believe.

Air moves from areas of higher pressure to lower pressure. As your diaphragm (the muscle that separates your chest cavity from your abdominal cavity) moves downward, the size of your chest cavity increases. This decreases the pressure in your chest and air flows in. When the diaphragm is up, it puts pressure on the chest cavity and the pressure in the lungs is greater than outside the lungs.

The size of the chest cavity actually increases rather then becomes closed and constricted.

Emm, actually what you just quote is just about the process of breathing. Not at all about what happens as we climb higher.
http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/health/health-t...ppens.html

And you say why does it say water and not say blood or soil?

The verses you quoted (92:6, 15:28, and 15:26), was only much related to the creation of Man.

Question that I want to raise is, why water? Why the word 'water' is being used. And 21:30 said, made from water 'every living' being.

So, what do you think about what science said about water and life.

Completely meaningless statement, I thought your god was omnipotetent, so therfore he would have had no problem putting something in the quaran that lead men to make major discoveries.
Even something as simple as penicillin being found in mould.
But nothing, nothing that is apart from the 7th century rantings of an manipulative paedophile.

Simply because quran was not a book of science. else, it would become irrelevant. 'Penicillin'? do you think they (7th century) know what it is. Even the term I believe is coined in the last century.

Or even if they knew what penicillin is, the latter people will just seen it as something that has just been discovered at that time or even ridicule it as a 'science' book. That's why God picked the furthest knowledge could available to man, which is the creation of life, or even big bang.

[paulpablo]

The air is not really thin at high altitudes. The problem is that air pressure is lower. As altitude increases,air pressure decreases. In order for your lungs to fill with air, the air pressure in your lungs has to be less than the pressure of the air outside your lungs. Air moves from areas of higher pressure to lower pressure. As your diaphragm (the muscle that separates your chest cavity from your abdominal cavity) moves downward, the size of your chest cavity increases. This decreases the pressure in your chest and air flows in. When the diaphragm is up, it puts pressure on the chest cavity and the pressure in the lungs is greater than outside the lungs. Air flows out. This is an example of Boyle's Law. The movement of the diaphragm is controlled by the brainstem. Anyway-the reason that it is harder for some people to breathe at higher altitudes is that the air pressure differences aren't as great between the inside of the lungs and outside.

This is the full quote, as I said though even if Muhammad was right I don't see that as a miracle he couldn't understand.

The verses you quoted (92:6, 15:28, and 15:26), was only much related to the creation of Man.

Question that I want to raise is, why water? Why the word 'water' is being used. And 21:30 said, made from water 'every living' being.

So, what do you think about what science said about water and life.

You tell me what I should think, that might make it easier. I definitely don't think a book that says "we created all life out of water" Isn't a scientific miracle or even a miracle. I don't know why the word water is being used.

[paulpablo]

Additionally a question I would ask is why did god say he made man from mud, then man from blood, then all living things including man from water.

[remy]

Additionally a question I would ask is why did god say he made man from mud, then man from blood, then all living things including man from water.

I believe the answer lies in the difference process of creation.

You tell me what I should think, that might make it easier. I definitely don't think a book that says "we created all life out of water" Isn't a scientific miracle or even a miracle. I don't know why the word water is being used.

http://io9.com/5728932/why-do-we-look-fo...trial-life

Why is it that astrobiologists consider water a prerequisite, when searching for life.?

I can't tell you the exact answer because of my limited knowledge about biology. But I felt that there's something about relation between water and the creation of life.

p / s : Please stop trying to look something at quranic verses as miracle. Because most of the people expects miracle as something magical, while magical always being defined by what we saw in movies and TV.

[paulpablo]

Scientists look for water as a prerequisite for life because it is important for life to exist. It will be easier for you to just tell me why you think the verse is a miracle because I really don't think anything of this verse at all.

I'm looking for a miracle not in the form of magic. I'm looking for a verse that could not possibly have been written by a man in the 7th century without divine intervention.

Now you present me with a verse that says all living things are made from water.

This is from a website dealing with Egyptian creation myths.

. .Since the Nile river, with its annual floods played a critical role in this cosmic order. It should come as no surprise to find water the fundamental element in the Egyptians ideas of creation..In the beginning there was only water, a chaos of churning, bubbling water, this the Egyptians called Nu or Nun. It was out of Nu that everything began.

There are creation myths and writings of all sorts around the time of Muhammad and before, which included people being made from clay, water, bodily secretions and so on.

So basically as I said all I ask myself when I look for a miracle is "Is there any sort of information here which is unique, clear, and which Muhammad could not have known about except via divine intervention."

The answer to this verse is obvious, there are plenty of creation myths involving water, the verse is not unique, clear or informative in the slightest, it just says god made life from water. Even wild animals, cows and sheep or whatever know water is important for life, it isn't information which has been recently discovered.

[paulpablo]

No more signs?