Are you for or against the separation of church and state?

[ebg]

Most people fail to understand the concept of separation of church and state.If I am a politician...can I consult my wife as to the position I should have on a certain bill? How about my daughter? Can I seek her advice? How about the guy who works at Mcdonalds? If yes...then of course I can seek the advice of a clergy. Separation of church and state is not the concept of selecting and discriminating upon thinking and decision making...a preist can be voted into office if the people vote him in. However Separation of church and state restricts that preist from making everyone a christian by law.

[radorth]

Radorth,

Picture of Jefferson's headstone (the contents of which were dictated by Jefferson):



Text of "An Act to Establish Religious Freedom" (see page 2):
http://www.calhum.org/files/uploads/prog...reedom.pdf

No debate required.

Well excuse me, you did not answer the question. If he attended Protestant services in the capitol building, what did he mean by a "wall of separation"?

There is debate required because yo don't know. You are just pasting stuff as if it answered questions people should reasonably ask.

---

And that's just fine and dandy with me too, so long as it is not extended to making policies imposing those religious views on others (ie. teaching creationism in schools, not allowing divorce, etc.).

When Jefferson was president of the D.C. schools, was he imposing Christianity on children by permitting Bible reading? If he had them read his "Jefferson Bible" as it is called, would that be violating his own "wall of separation"?

(Not that I think it should be read there, but the question needs to be answered)

[Cato]

Well excuse me, you did not answer the question. If he attended Protestant services in the capitol building, what did he mean by a "wall of separation"?

There is debate required because yo don't know. You are just pasting stuff as if it answered questions people should reasonably ask.

Your're a fucking idiot. It's not my argument. You invoked Thomas Jefferson, not me. I gave you irrefutable evidence from the man you invoked on behalf of your Christian nation bullshit, yet you dismiss it because you claim he attended a Protestant service. Big fucking deal.

I've attended Catholic mass, have been privy to a Lutheran Sunday, heard a Methodist give his best, tolerated a Baptist preacher for the sake of a pot luck dinner, was married in a Pentacostal Holiness church, was warmly received by a non-denominational preacher talking about God's love, was told by another non-denominational cocksucker that I had to give 10%, wasted three hours of my life on two different occaisions in a Mormon ward, yet you would rather believe David Barton than trust the words of Thomas Jefferson regarding Jefferson's stance on the separation of church and state.

And you wonder why people like me make fun of people like you.

[radorth]

I hate it when fundies de-convert

On the bright side, I can make fun of them all I suppose.

[Cato]

I hate it when fundies de-convert

On the bright side, I can make fun of them all I suppose.

I became atheist at the age of 8 while being reared in a Catholic home. My participation in other Christian rituals was not meant to convey any feliance for the beliefs, but to undercut your stupid assertion that Jefferson was not sincere regarding religious freedom simply because he attended a particular service.

The joke continues to be on you.

[smax]

I don't agree with your assessment of Thomas Jefferson, or his views, but that debate can wait.

Sorry smax, I can't let this go.

Radorth,

Picture of Jefferson's headstone (the contents of which were dictated by Jefferson):



Text of "An Act to Establish Religious Freedom" (see page 2):
http://www.calhum.org/files/uploads/prog...reedom.pdf

No debate required.

This is a great subject for debate, and I would very much like to engage in it at another time, and most likely in another thread.

Perhaps we can start one called:

Thomas Jefferson: Christian or not?

[festive1]

And that's just fine and dandy with me too, so long as it is not extended to making policies imposing those religious views on others (ie. teaching creationism in schools, not allowing divorce, etc.).

When Jefferson was president of the D.C. schools, was he imposing Christianity on children by permitting Bible reading? If he had them read his "Jefferson Bible" as it is called, would that be violating his own "wall of separation"?

(Not that I think it should be read there, but the question needs to be answered)

There is a quote of Jefferson's at his memorial in DC. It says:

I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors.

No matter your views on Jefferson, there's no denying he was intelligent. He viewed himself within the context of his times, which is more than most people. I daresay, society has progressed a little since the late 18th century. The Bible, NKJ or Jeffersonian or otherwise, has no place in 21st century schools. I don't hold Jefferson, or any historical figure, to our modern standards, because this was not their historical context, and it is dishonest and unfair to hold them to such.
Jefferson is not my favorite historical person. I have my own opinions of him, which I will gladly post in a thread on Jefferson, should anyone feel the need to open one. This, however, is not the place to debate Jefferson.

[ebg]

As per public schools? How do you feel about religion in private catholic school? How do you justify protecting the children in public schools from biblical teaching...yet not protecting the children in catholic school? How about Sunday school??

[festive1]

It's the parents' choice to send their kids to whatever school they want or to homeschool them if they choose. That's their right to practice their religion. I find keeping your kid home for schooling, solely to teach them religion, distasteful, but acknowledge the parents' right to do so. I do feel bad for those kids though.

[ebg]

It's the parents' choice to send their kids to whatever school they want or to homeschool them if they choose. That's their right to practice their religion. I find keeping your kid home for schooling, solely to teach them religion, distasteful, but acknowledge the parents' right to do so. I do feel bad for those kids though.

But,if religion is detasteful when does it become harmful? Just like slavery and child labor was a "parent's right"...when does society deems religion harmful too?