If Not Hell then what?

[Strongbad]

Yeah, but we know that Drich got the heebie-jeebies about hell from an ACTUAL DREAM, not his car stereo, so his authority cannot be questioned!

It wasn't the fear of Hell that inspired me to change. When I was there, I found that I had a weird sense on belonging or rather I knew that I belong there. What made me want to change was for the briefest of moments I experienced the boundless love God offered the saved for eternity, and I wanted to be apart of that more than anything. The lement and angiush I experienced in Hell was not because Hell itself, It came from the seperation of me from creation. The darkness of Hell was all consuming yes, and very scarry in it's own right, but it was the idea of eternal seperation after knowing what I gave up that was forever damming.

So you had a vivid dream? Big fucking deal – we all have vivid dreams from time to time.  I’m sure you know that Muslims have vivid dreams in which they meet Allah face-to-face, right?  Do their dreams give them any actual “knowledge” about Allah, or are they just fucking dreams? Your dream was not an “experience”; it was a dream, you knucklehead.

If hell is the alternative to heaven, then nobody has anything to worry about.  Since neither of them exists, they cancel each other out.  Poof!

[My imaginary friend is GOD]

I had a dream where I had a friggin' pet dragon. That doesn't mean dragons are real and I have special knowledge about the nature of dragons.

[Strongbad]

I had a dream where I had a friggin' pet dragon. That doesn't mean dragons are real and I have special knowledge about the nature of dragons.

Uh, yes it does - that is exactly what it means, just a/s/k Drich.

[Ryantology]

I called this one already on page 6. In that in your own version of Righteousness you have found God guilt of being immoral and therefore find it completely immoral to serve a God that does not align himself with your morality.

Wouldn't you? I can only imagine you worship your god because you find his morals agreeable. The fact that you have to justify his righteousness suggests that you don't disagree with what God says about what is right and what is wrong.

My question then and now is, what makes your personal version of Righteousness the standard in which all is to be judged? In otherwords what power or authority is your morality based on? Pop culture? what of other pop cultures? what do you do when your pop morality contradicts another pop culture's morality? Who is right?

What makes my personal version of righteousness less valid than God's? As far as I can tell, your only answer to this is "it does not agree with God". This is arbitrary and meaningless. What makes his standard of righteousness right? As far as I can tell, it is because he has the power to destroy everything if he wanted. If I had God's destructive power and the Bible told you to worship me, you would, without question.

But, I do not claim to be the ultimate arbiter of righteousness, nor do I recognize as valid any being which makes such a claim. And there are a lot of them. Your god is one of many such claimants. None of them impress me.

Another question, If God is the God of the bible then how will you convince him or make Him understand that your self righteousness should superceed His?

Why should I care what he thinks of my righteousness? His opinion would mean nothing to me.

Hell is merely the alternitive to spending an eternity with a God you want nothing to do with.

It sounds as if you are describing a state no different from the oblivion most of us expect when we die. As this is a fact many of us have come to accept, why should we care to avert it? Especially when (in my case) the alternative is spending eternity with a being which would disgust me if he really existed? You're trying to sell me a product I really, really do not want. Why bother?

I was 'bounced' because i did not publically shun my wife for being an addict, and stand before the congergation and beg them to seperate her sins from my own. Without this declaration we were viewed as being equally guilty of the same sins, and appearently they did not want a herion addict in their church, let alone teaching.

Maybe they were absolutely right about you and you decided you did not like this. I have no doubt you will disagree and justify it with Bible verses. I have similarly little doubt that the leaders of the church which evicted you could do precisely the same thing. Which of you is right?

[Fidel_Castronaut]

That sounds awful.

Glad it doesn't exist.

Funny!!

It is, isn't it?

[Drich]

I am not looking for a wiki, nor a 'christian' view on Hell. I am looking for specific book Chapter and verse that condradicts what i have said about Hell.

If you looked at the Wiki, instead of being lazy, you would have seen that the wiki mentioned the biblical verses.

Matthew 10:2828 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Mark 9:4343 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where


‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[d]

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where


‘Their worm does not die,
And the fire is not quenched.’[e]

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where


‘Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched.’[f]

2 Peter 2:4

2pet2 on describes God ablity and willingness to judge. While Hell is mentioned buy name is has nothing to do with the arguement. The other two verses however do. In that they completely support my arguement.

My arguement: Hell is eternial, we however or rather our experience of Hell is not. I per my experience say we will be consumed by Helll or burnt up in it by Hell fire.

Yours/wiki-christianity: People will suffer in hell for eternity.

The two verses you left that actually speak of Hell starting with Mt 10 is the primary verse that supports my arguement that we are consumed by hell fire or we are killed/burnt up. let look at the verse again: Matthew 10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

You passage in Mark only strengthens my statement that Hell is forever....

---

So you had a vivid dream?

No, an experience. I experienced Hell before I knew what it was. I live though a biblically supported experience (one not taught through main stream christianity) Long before I studied the subject well enough to full understand what I experienced.

Big fucking deal – we all have vivid dreams from time to time.

I only allow my experience to be classified as a dream for those who simply do not want to believe or do not wish to explore what lies ahead of us. Why? Because technically it was a dream, that said Could the God of creation Use a dream to communicate to any one of us? Yes. Could it be just a drea that just so happen to coinside with an untaught description of Hell held with in it's pages?? The answer to that is Yes as well.
This is why I leave you with an out/oppertunity to dismiss what I experienced as just a dream.
If that is what you want to believe then fine, no pressure here. However if you want to try and change what I believe by challenging or trying to get me to accept your personal trivialization of what I experienced... Let's just say "There's no hope in Hell" and yet I found some. I got to wake up and as a result I will not squander what life I have left because you do want to hear what I have to say.

 

[Neo-Scholastic]

What makes my personal version of righteousness less valid than God's?

Maybe because you're not God. See this is what happens when you deny God. You start to think you can take His place by making yourself into your own god. You're really pathetic.

[Drich]

Wouldn't you? I can only imagine you worship your god because you find his morals agreeable. The fact that you have to justify his righteousness suggests that you don't disagree with what God says about what is right and what is wrong.

...That Is What Moraltiy IS!!! It is a seperation from God's Absolute unchanging righteousness. Meaning because we can not live up to God's standard of right and wrong we make our own. at first it is slightly different and the longer we stay away from God the worse it gets...

Everyone has a version of Morality apart from the righteousness of God. The only difference between believers and those who hate God is a believer is willing to admit his version of 'righteousness' is a perverse standard good for nothing more than justifying the sins he is willing to live with. Thus prompting him to ask for forgiveness. While the person who hates God tries to use his self righteous standard to make it immoral to worship a god who does not humble himself to the will and morality of the people he has created.

What makes my personal version of righteousness less valid than God's? As far as I can tell, your only answer to this is "it does not agree with God". This is arbitrary and meaningless. What makes his standard of righteousness right?

In this case might makes right. God holds the keys to eternal life and death in His hands and has set forth a standard in which we have to live by or find attonement for.

As far as I can tell, it is because he has the power to destroy everything if he wanted. If I had God's destructive power and the Bible told you to worship me, you would, without question.

You personally? No. My pride and self righteousness/'morality' would have gotten the better of me.

But, I do not claim to be the ultimate arbiter of righteousness, nor do I recognize as valid any being which makes such a claim. And there are a lot of them. Your god is one of many such claimants. None of them impress me.

Why? Because your morality/Self righteousness has told you that no one should have absolute dominion over any other being... Which is one of the defining characteristics of God. (A being with abolute dominion over everyone and everything)

Why should I care what he thinks of my righteousness? His opinion would mean nothing to me.

That I do not dispute, so long as you can live blind, deaf and dumb to everything outside of what this life currently has shown you.

It sounds as if you are describing a state no different from the oblivion most of us expect when we die. As this is a fact many of us have come to accept, why should we care to avert it? Especially when (in my case) the alternative is spending eternity with a being which would disgust me if he really existed? You're trying to sell me a product I really, really do not want. Why bother?

Would you still want this 'oblivion' if it meant 1000 years of Helll fire? 10,000? a Million? Billion? Trillion? 1/2 of eternity? How long would you endure Hellish torment, for this oblivion you currently seek?

Maybe they were absolutely right about you and you decided you did not like this. I have no doubt you will disagree and justify it with Bible verses. I have similarly little doubt that the leaders of the church which evicted you could do precisely the same thing. Which of you is right?

They did not have bible verses, They simply came to me with insistance. When I presented them with bible verses that would have me stand by my wife, and asked them to provide scripture to support their actions, the elders simply said this is how we do things at this church... Then they went on to justify their authority in leadership at the church (constructing an arguement similar to why the pope has power in rome) then they told me to goto a sister congergation who was better 'equiped' to help people like us. that is what I did.

[Darkstar]

What makes my personal version of righteousness less valid than God's?

Maybe because you're not God. See this is what happens when you deny God. You start to think you can take His place by making yourself into your own god. You're really pathetic.

If one claims that their personal version of righteousness is better that god's, this only requires that one be a god him/herself if:

1. God exists.

2. God wrote/inspired the standards of righteousness in the bible.

3. God is omniscient or at least unfathomably intelligent.

and 4. God is benevolent.

Omit just one of these and the standards of righteousness in the bible no longer posses their arbitrary immunity to criticism. Why the first two reasons are required should be obvious. If the third is untrue, then god could be wrong about what is righteous. If the fourth is false, then he could have lied.

[Ryantology]

Maybe because you're not God. See this is what happens when you deny God. You start to think you can take His place by making yourself into your own god. You're really pathetic.

You have more proof that I am the omniscient creator of all things, because while we make the same claims, I obviously exist. You take an enormous risk by not worshiping me. Can you prove that I am not the creator of all things, and all-powerful? If not, then you are just making an ass of yourself.

That Is What Moraltiy IS!!! It is a seperation from God's Absolute unchanging righteousness. Meaning because we can not live up to God's standard of right and wrong we make our own. at first it is slightly different and the longer we stay away from God the worse it gets...

I agree with you. Separating one's self from God's idea of right and wrong is what morality is. That is because God's standard of right and wrong is so ridiculously twisted that it is worse, lower and more debased than the moral standard of the worst human imaginable.

Your god's opinion of right and wrong is just his opinion. I don't share it, and I don't share in his conceit. His righteousness is no higher or more absolute than mine. And that's giving the fucker a lot of credit.

Everyone has a version of Morality apart from the righteousness of God. The only difference between believers and those who hate God is a believer is willing to admit his version of 'righteousness' is a perverse standard good for nothing more than justifying the sins he is willing to live with. Thus prompting him to ask for forgiveness. While the person who hates God tries to use his self righteous standard to make it immoral to worship a god who does not humble himself to the will and morality of the people he has created.

You sound like the Aflac duck in real life, don't you?

In this case might makes right. God holds the keys to eternal life and death in His hands and has set forth a standard in which we have to live by or find attonement for.

I see. So, if I am stronger than you, I have the right to do anything I want to you, because my might makes me right and your weakness makes you wrong. That means that I am right and God is wrong, since I am more powerful than a non-existent being. Lucky for you, I'm such a nice guy.

You personally? No. My pride and self righteousness/'morality' would have gotten the better of me.

Then, you just need to A/S/K me a little harder. Obviously, you're doing it wrong.

Why? Because your morality/Self righteousness has told you that no one should have absolute dominion over any other being... Which is one of the defining characteristics of God. (A being with abolute dominion over everyone and everything)

That is subtly different from what I am saying. If there is a being with absolute dominion over everything, then that is that. I would no more argue this is immoral than I would argue that it is immoral that a star has the power to destroy me.

Even if I was to go along with your nonsense and say that there is an omnipotent, omniscient god who created the universe, that itself is not a problem. I argue this point because it's a claim with no evidence, not because I find the idea inherently negative. What my self-righteousness tells me is that power comes with responsibility. The reason I find your god repulsive is because your god is irresponsible and abusive and relishes in hurting, killing, and controlling people and all of it is entirely unnecessary (an omnipotent being does NOTHING unless it is to get a specific result), so he is doing it because he likes it. When a child starves, and dies in agony, it is because God explicitly wants that child to suffer. When a woman is raped, it is because he desires it to happen. All a part of the plan, right? Free will doesn't matter. When an infant is raped and dies choking on the rapist's condom, that is not the infant's free will. That is your god's will. He is guilty of either not acting to step in and save a defenseless child, or of intentionally provoking its death.

But, I forgot, I'm wasting my time explaining this to you. If God wants a child to die choking on a rapist's condom, that rape was a good and righteous action, according to you.

That I do not dispute, so long as you can live blind, deaf and dumb to everything outside of what this life currently has shown you.

Just one god out of thousands, remember that. I'm not impressed. I see nothing about your claims which sounds more reasonable than what wiccans or Hindus claim.

Would you still want this 'oblivion' if it meant 1000 years of Helll fire? 10,000? a Million? Billion? Trillion? 1/2 of eternity? How long would you endure Hellish torment, for this oblivion you currently seek?

As long as it takes. Only a coward can be threatened into loving someone.

They did not have bible verses, They simply came to me with insistance. When I presented them with bible verses that would have me stand by my wife, and asked them to provide scripture to support their actions, the elders simply said this is how we do things at this church... Then they went on to justify their authority in leadership at the church (constructing an arguement similar to why the pope has power in rome) then they told me to goto a sister congergation who was better 'equiped' to help people like us. that is what I did.

I asked, which of you was right? You didn't answer that question. What you did was decide you didn't like their answers and went somewhere where everyone agreed with you. Talk about self-righteous.