If Not Hell then what?

[Strongbad]

So you had a vivid dream?

No, an experience. I experienced Hell before I knew what it was. I live though a biblically supported experience (one not taught through main stream christianity) Long before I studied the subject well enough to full understand what I experienced.

Big fucking deal – we all have vivid dreams from time to time.

I only allow my experience to be classified as a dream for those who simply do not want to believe or do not wish to explore what lies ahead of us. Why? Because technically it was a dream, that said Could the God of creation Use a dream to communicate to any one of us? Yes. Could it be just a drea that just so happen to coinside with an untaught description of Hell held with in it's pages?? The answer to that is Yes as well.
This is why I leave you with an out/oppertunity to dismiss what I experienced as just a dream.
If that is what you want to believe then fine, no pressure here. However if you want to try and change what I believe by challenging or trying to get me to accept your personal trivialization of what I experienced... Let's just say "There's no hope in Hell" and yet I found some. I got to wake up and as a result I will not squander what life I have left because you do want to hear what I have to say.

You only allow your “experience” to be “classified” as a dream for the sake of lowly unbelievers? Pure, unmitigated jack-assery. Your state of delusion is palpable, yet so typical.

P.s. I like hearing what you have to say. If not for the sheer comedic entertainment value, then as a pathetic reminder that we are all surrounded by myth-believing charlatans and fools.

[goodnews]

I am suprised the Pagans have not filed law suits against the Christians for stealing their myth of Hades/ Hell . This evil doctrin crept its way into "christiandom" via a few badly translated words and pagan inspired interpretations, which financially has served the hierarchy very very well. hence they promote this endless torture conspiracy, allthough its very foundation is built on sand , as there are Hebrew OT + Greek NT manuscripts this is easly de-bunked, but try tell impartially, an indoctrinated Christian theologians word by word what is actually written in the scriptures, and they will spit skin roasting hell fire at you . There is nothing "christiandom" hates more than someone who lays bare there un-Biblical heresy .

[Drich]

I agree with you.

good.

In this case might makes right. God holds the keys to eternal life and death in His hands and has set forth a standard in which we have to live by or find attonement for.

I see. So, if I am stronger than you, I have the right to do anything I want to you, because my might makes me right and your weakness makes you wrong. That means that I am right and God is wrong, since I am more powerful than a non-existent being. Lucky for you, I'm such a nice guy.

Reread the first sentence in my orginal statement.

Then, you just need to A/S/K me a little harder. Obviously, you're doing it wrong.

i admitted to as much. I f you were to be worshiped as God I would simply refuse, like many of you refuse to A/S/K I would refuse to A/S/K because my 'morality' would not allow it.

That is subtly different from what I am saying. If there is a being with absolute dominion over everything, then that is that. I would no more argue this is immoral than I would argue that it is immoral that a star has the power to destroy me.

Even if I was to go along with your nonsense and say that there is an omnipotent, omniscient god who created the universe, that itself is not a problem. I argue this point because it's a claim with no evidence, not because I find the idea inherently negative.

Not a true statement. There is evidence to all who A/S/K for it. Which would indicate your not looking for real evidence. You are looking for socially accepted evidence.

What my self-righteousness tells me is that power comes with responsibility. The reason I find your god repulsive is

Because He has not bent His will to match your version of righteousness.

because your god is irresponsible and abusive and relishes in hurting, killing, and controlling people and all of it is entirely unnecessary (an omnipotent being does NOTHING unless it is to get a specific result), so he is doing it because he likes it. When a child starves, and dies in agony, it is because God explicitly wants that child to suffer. When a woman is raped, it is because he desires it to happen. All a part of the plan, right? Free will doesn't matter. When an infant is raped and dies choking on the rapist's condom, that is not the infant's free will. That is your god's will. He is guilty of either not acting to step in and save a defenseless child, or of intentionally provoking its death.

We chose (and continue to choose) to live in a world of sin, where 'Morality' reigns. Because everyone has their own version of 'morality' we have everything you have pointed out above.

But, I forgot, I'm wasting my time explaining this to you. If God wants a child to die choking on a rapist's condom, that rape was a good and righteous action, according to you.

That I do not dispute, so long as you can live blind, deaf and dumb to everything outside of what this life currently has shown you.

Just one god out of thousands, remember that. I'm not impressed. I see nothing about your claims which sounds more reasonable than what wiccans or Hindus claim.

Would you still want this 'oblivion' if it meant 1000 years of Helll fire? 10,000? a Million? Billion? Trillion? 1/2 of eternity? How long would you endure Hellish torment, for this oblivion you currently seek?

As long as it takes. Only a coward can be threatened into loving someone.

I asked, which of you was right? You didn't answer that question. What you did was decide you didn't like their answers and went somewhere where everyone agreed with you. Talk about self-righteous.

Because it was not a matter of right and wrong. It was a matter of following the rules of a god centered sociall club. If I wanted to be a member of said social club then I had to follow those rules. As it turned out I did not want me or mine to be apart of a God centered Social club. So I sought out a bible based Church.

---

You only allow your “experience” to be “classified” as a dream for the sake of lowly unbelievers? Pure, unmitigated jack-assery. Your state of delusion is palpable, yet so typical.

P.s. I like hearing what you have to say. If not for the sheer comedic entertainment value, then as a pathetic reminder that we are all surrounded by myth-believing charlatans and fools.

You do know how insults work right? It's not just a matter of putting someone down. For an insult to work the one being insulted must first value the person who is doing the insulting on some level. As you are nothing more to me than empty ideals on a screen, what you have to say means very little to me.

That said if you like what I have to say then simply keep asking questions. I do not care one way or another why you like reading what I think. My only concern is to give you an oppertunity to hear what the bible says in relation to what you have asked. So save you zingers for the christian desperatly seeking your personal approval, as an atheist, on an atheist website.

---

I am suprised the Pagans have not filed law suits against the Christians for stealing their myth of Hades/ Hell . This evil doctrin crept its way into "christiandom" via a few badly translated words and pagan inspired interpretations, which financially has served the hierarchy very very well. hence they promote this endless torture conspiracy, allthough its very foundation is built on sand , as there are Hebrew OT + Greek NT manuscripts this is easly de-bunked, but try tell impartially, an indoctrinated Christian theologians word by word what is actually written in the scriptures, and they will spit skin roasting hell fire at you . There is nothing "christiandom" hates more than someone who lays bare there un-Biblical heresy .

That (in part) is what this thread is about. Seperating the 'pagan' version of Hell from the biblical account. In truth aside from being an unpleasent place, there is not much Hell has to do with 'hades.'

[Angrboda]

Perhaps you getting bounced from your last church was God's way of saying "shut the fuck up".

I was 'bounced' because i did not publically shun my wife for being an addict, and stand before the congergation and beg them to seperate her sins from my own. Without this declaration we were viewed as being equally guilty of the same sins, and appearently they did not want a herion addict in their church, let alone teaching.

I want to thank you for following up and answering my question. I also appreciate your explaining why you got bounced from your former church. If this is a true account of what happened — and I don't doubt that it is, given that this type of thing is not all that uncommon in some churches — I want to commend you for sticking up to them and standing by your wife. That's quite admirable. Some here may ask where you got the moral imperative to do so when others who had come to God in your former church viewed the morality of what you did completely differently. I'm not asking for an answer here, just suggesting something that you might want to think upon.

I haven't been following this thread, and I just poked in today because I noticed you had posted and felt obligated to see if you had responded to my query. I'm not going to comment on that response at this time, nor am I going to bother to catch up on this thread (I'm only on page 10 of 13). I doubt I'll be replying to you anytime soon, as I'm not particularly up for this discussion at the moment, and I've got other priorities.

Anyway, thank you for your reply, and good for you for sticking up against your former church.

[Drich]

I was 'bounced' because i did not publically shun my wife for being an addict, and stand before the congergation and beg them to seperate her sins from my own. Without this declaration we were viewed as being equally guilty of the same sins, and appearently they did not want a herion addict in their church, let alone teaching.

I want to thank you for following up and answering my question. I also appreciate your explaining why you got bounced from your former church. If this is a true account of what happened — and I don't doubt that it is, given that this type of thing is not all that uncommon in some churches — I want to commend you for sticking up to them and standing by your wife. That's quite admirable. Some here may ask where you got the moral imperative to do so when others who had come to God in your former church viewed the morality of what you did completely differently. I'm not asking for an answer here, just suggesting something that you might want to think upon.

I haven't been following this thread, and I just poked in today because I noticed you had posted and felt obligated to see if you had responded to my query. I'm not going to comment on that response at this time, nor am I going to bother to catch up on this thread (I'm only on page 10 of 13). I doubt I'll be replying to you anytime soon, as I'm not particularly up for this discussion at the moment, and I've got other priorities.

Anyway, thank you for your reply, and good for you for sticking up against your former church.

I started a new thread because answering that question is a topic unto itself.

(Seperating God from religion)

[Strongbad]

You do know how insults work right? It's not just a matter of putting someone down. For an insult to work the one being insulted must first value the person who is doing the insulting on some level. As you are nothing more to me than empty ideals on a screen, what you have to say means very little to me.

That said if you like what I have to say then simply keep asking questions. I do not care one way or another why you like reading what I think. My only concern is to give you an oppertunity to hear what the bible says in relation to what you have asked. So save you zingers for the christian desperatly seeking your personal approval, as an atheist, on an atheist website.

bolding mine

If I was actually trying to insult you, you'd know it, and you wouldn't have to pretend to be insulted.
Now, how about giving me the opportunity to hear what the bible says in relation to what I asked you previously:
"I’m sure you know that Muslims have vivid dreams in which they meet Allah face-to-face, right? Do their dreams give them any actual “knowledge” about Allah, or are they just fucking dreams?"

[Drich]

Now, how about giving me the opportunity to hear what the bible says in relation to what I asked you previously:
"I’m sure you know that Muslims have vivid dreams in which they meet Allah face-to-face, right? Do their dreams give them any actual “knowledge” about Allah, or are they just fucking dreams?"

Dreams of Allah, could indeed give one more indepth knoweledge of Allah, after all isn't that how that whole religion got started to begin with?

The only question is who is Allah? Is he who he says he is? or is he a deceiving spirit? A simple bible/quran study comparing the (failed) 'prophecies' of his primary prophet would classify him as a false God according to the very same passage in Deut 15 that his followers use to establish moe-ham's status as a prophet of the one living God.

His failed prophesies mean two things, Moe-ham was not a prophet of the God of the bible. (As the vast majority of His prophecies failed and according to deut 15 one failed prophecy indicates a false prophet of the living God) and two That the source of his prophecies either lied to him or was not an 'all knowing' God. By which is defination is a deceiving spirit.

So back to your question. Is it possiable for a muslim to have a dream about allah, yes. Is Allah the God of the bible? no. Why? Because allah either lied to or did not know the outcome of future events and gave Moe-ham the wrong info, making him by defination a deceiving Spirit, and poor ole moe-ham a false prophet of a deceiving spirit.

[Strongbad]

Now, how about giving me the opportunity to hear what the bible says in relation to what I asked you previously:
"I’m sure you know that Muslims have vivid dreams in which they meet Allah face-to-face, right? Do their dreams give them any actual “knowledge” about Allah, or are they just fucking dreams?"

Dreams of Allah, could indeed give one more indepth knoweledge of Allah, after all isn't that how that whole religion got started to begin with?

The only question is who is Allah? Is he who he says he is? or is he a deceiving spirit? A simple bible/quran study comparing the (failed) 'prophecies' of his primary prophet would classify him as a false God according to the very same passage in Deut 15 that his followers use to establish moe-ham's status as a prophet of the one living God.

His failed prophesies mean two things, Moe-ham was not a prophet of the God of the bible. (As the vast majority of His prophecies failed and according to deut 15 one failed prophecy indicates a false prophet of the living God) and two That the source of his prophecies either lied to him or was not an 'all knowing' God. By which is defination is a deceiving spirit.

So back to your question. Is it possiable for a muslim to have a dream about allah, yes. Is Allah the God of the bible? no. Why? Because allah either lied to or did not know the outcome of future events and gave Moe-ham the wrong info, making him by defination a deceiving Spirit, and poor ole moe-ham a false prophet of a deceiving spirit.

So...1.2 billion people have been tricked into believing in a "deceiving spirit" by a "false prophet". Hell sure is going to be crowded with Muslims, isn't it?

[Drich]

Dreams of Allah, could indeed give one more indepth knoweledge of Allah, after all isn't that how that whole religion got started to begin with?

The only question is who is Allah? Is he who he says he is? or is he a deceiving spirit? A simple bible/quran study comparing the (failed) 'prophecies' of his primary prophet would classify him as a false God according to the very same passage in Deut 15 that his followers use to establish moe-ham's status as a prophet of the one living God.

His failed prophesies mean two things, Moe-ham was not a prophet of the God of the bible. (As the vast majority of His prophecies failed and according to deut 15 one failed prophecy indicates a false prophet of the living God) and two That the source of his prophecies either lied to him or was not an 'all knowing' God. By which is defination is a deceiving spirit.

So back to your question. Is it possiable for a muslim to have a dream about allah, yes. Is Allah the God of the bible? no. Why? Because allah either lied to or did not know the outcome of future events and gave Moe-ham the wrong info, making him by defination a deceiving Spirit, and poor ole moe-ham a false prophet of a deceiving spirit.

So...1.2 billion people have been tricked into believing in a "deceiving spirit" by a "false prophet". Hell sure is going to be crowded with Muslims, isn't it?

and Christians, and jews and non believers, and everyother religious and non religious group. Being judged righteous before Christ has nothing to do with what you lable yourself. It is upto Christ to personally judge each and every one of us and He will do so accuratly and swiftly.

[Gabriel Syme]

If you believe Hell to be immoral or just plain wrong, then what would you suggest God do with those who do not want to serve Him for eternity?

Hi Drich,

In Catholic belief, hell is simply "the absence of God". (That is, to be without God is hell in and of itself, no flames or devils required lol).

Just as Heaven is "with God".

These definitions mean the popular notions of "going to Heaven" and "just dying" (ie nothing more after death) are not mutually exclusive, both could exist, and which one we experienced would be down to our own lifetime / belief or lack of.