North Korea - smear on atheism?

[Dawud]

I meant a dirtying of the term by a state that is obviously not atheist but uses the word 'atheist' to refer to the atrocities done by them - had North Korea really been atheist they couldn't use the term 'heavenly leader' (that's what you implied?)

[The Grand Nudger]

They absolutely could use that term and still be an atheist state in description. "Heavenly" does not equal "a god" - that's your own baggage in equating the two terms (and the baggage of others). Divine though, that one is a no-no (but only in a couple contexts of the word). Nevertheless, as before, it doesn't really matter(because they could just as easily call their leader a god and still describe themselves as an atheist state..again, political past that they feel compelled to maintain.

[Esquilax]

I meant a dirtying of the term by a state that is obviously not atheist but uses the word 'atheist' to refer to the atrocities done by them - had North Korea really been atheist they couldn't use the term 'heavenly leader' (that's what you implied?)

Well, I'd suggest that the term "Heavenly Leader," is just one symptom of the deification of the leaders of North Korea; even if they aren't using the term in a strictly religious manner it still denotes divinity. All that's really happened is that they've built up a man to the status of a god; there's worship there, even if it doesn't happen in a church. Add in all the magical claims the propaganda mill spews out there, and it begins to look awfully religious, in the same way that cults venerate their earthly leaders.

And you'd hardly claim cults are atheistic.

[Dawud]

They absolutely could use that term and still be an atheist state in description. "Heavenly" does not equal "a god" - that's your own baggage in equating the two terms (and the baggage of others).

Sorry - thought this too but then it appeared it was being given as evidence NK was not atheist... No?

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So atheists can't be religious then? Or in a cult?

This seems a little far fetched - no?

[Esquilax]

Given that the sole criteria for being an atheist is not believing in god or the religious claims of theists, how could an atheist be religious?

[Dawud]

PS you don't need to assume that I have little understanding of atheism - philosophy works best with the principle of charity that makes you engage with the persons argument in the best possible interpretation.

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So your definition of religion is theism?

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Religion is believing in God?

[The Grand Nudger]

To be completely blunt, there is no such thing as an "atheist state" - no more so than a "christian state" or "muslim state". The people or the powers that be may be predominantly one or the other, but states themselves have no beliefs...and so descriptors like this usually serve a political or propaganda purpose first and foremost. In the case of N. Korea this is very plainly the case, as the whole "atheist state" song and dance is just a remnant of cold war drama. They no longer care about that- it's kept like a vestigial organ. Continuity of authority. Depending on the context of divine or heavenly (and on that I am unqualified to answer...the only N. Koreans I've ever known were civilian defectors working in electronics manufacturing- i can't tell you what N. Koreans take those two words to mean and neither directly, in every case, are equivalent to "god") the descriptor may or may not be accurate depending upon the vantage point of the observer. It certainly doesn't seem to be accurate to us (the inclusive us - we, you and I) - clearly, but that might have something to do with what we've invested the words divine and heavenly with, eh?

Now, the point in agonizing over whether or not N. Korea is an atheist state eludes me, supposing that they were (and that the term really applies) what then?

[Dawud]

I agree with you - I don't think they are...

I think they are just pretending when they claim that the state ideology is an atheist one

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I do say that they are then misrepresenting atheism as something that allows for belief in God.

I also agree that atheism is not an ideology or a moral system

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But I don't agree that you can't be religious and an atheist.

Unless you have an insufficient definition of religion...

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I think that people pick and choose if something is religious or not...

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Is this not the case??

[Esquilax]

So your definition of religion is theism?

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Religion is believing in God?

Pretty much. I mean, obviously there's more to it than that, but to be religious obviously implies you have a religion, and since atheism is a rejection of religious claims they're kind of mutually exclusive.

Of course, the waters do get muddy at points, and some theists like the old "atheism is a religion!" canard, but I feel like that just complicates things unnecessarily.

[The Grand Nudger]

There are plenty of religions that allow for atheism.