The Power of Belief

[Raven]

What we believe to be true colors everything which we see. For instance, if you have a hypothetical 30-something guy who is given to conspiracy theories, everywhere this guy looks he is going to see conspiracies. He'll probably think that there was a plot of some kind to kill JFK, that the moon landings were faked, that economic problems are caused by some vast government/banker conspiracy, and be concerned about the Muslims conspiring to take over the US, with Obama as their head guy who is going to take away our guns, lock up true Xtian NRA members and institute Sharia law. And he will believe this as strongly as I believe that the sky is overcast as I write this.

Here's the deal- as you believe, so you will behave. So, if you believe that God has a plan, that is going to influence all of your decisions, actions, etc. It's up to the creator what happens. If bad things happen to you then you start thinking that God is angry with you and you deserve this. To a very large extent you cease to think for yourself. It's your life to live but you keep trying to live it for some imaginary being instead of living it for yourself. Whose life is it anyway?

That is one of the things I most have against the continuation of religious belief. What they are doing is taking people's lives away from them with their ridiculous fairy tales. They frighten small children with graphic descriptions of hell. They tell girls that they must spend their lives subordinate to first their father, and then their husband. They endlessly promote obedience over using one's brain and thinking for themselves. But it is all done with love so that makes it OK.

If you believe that being Gay (as if you had a choice in such things) is wrong, then you can discriminate against such people and you are being righteous in doing so.

If you believe that your religion is the only right and proper way for a person to live their life, then it is OK for you to do all kinds of things:
Do all in your power to take away a woman's right to choose, without actually outlawing it outright, being those nasty feminists got that Roe v Wade decision on their side. But that isn't going to stop us doing what is right, dammit!

Let a woman die rather than terminate her pregnancy, because that's what God wants. What's right is right.

Deny adolescents proper sex education because it would be improper to teach them anything other than abstain until you are married.

Preach anti-gay hate messages from your pulpits, make gay kids being dragged to your services by their fundie parents hate themselves as sinners and perverts and sick deviants with your intolerant “abomination before the lord” crapola.

Do your damnedest to fight the light of science and progress because you know that your iron-age ignorant “wisdom” is the true light of God's wisdom and love which will be the salvation of humankind.

Amen.

[Drich]

What we believe to be true colors everything which we see. For instance, if you have a hypothetical 30-something guy who is given to conspiracy theories, everywhere this guy looks he is going to see conspiracies. He'll probably think that there was a plot of some kind to kill JFK,

If there had not been a plot to kill JFK he would not have been Shot by Lee Harvey. (It only takes one to plot.)

that the moon landings were faked, that economic problems are caused by some vast government/banker conspiracy,

There was. it is called greed. Greed is what allowed the banks and the goverment/Fanny mae and freddy mac, to make one bad loan after another in a real estate bubble, to people who could not ever hope to pay back what they had borrowed.

and be concerned about the Muslims conspiring to take over the US, with Obama as their head guy who is going to take away our guns, lock up true Xtian NRA members and institute Sharia law.

Maybe not take over, but Mr. Obama has loosened this country's policys enough to allow attacks by radical muslims to be carried out against the US once again. Not saying this is an all bad thing as there needs to be an over all ying to the pervious adminstrations yang, but one can not argue that we are more vurnable than we were 8 years ago.

And he will believe this as strongly as I believe that the sky is overcast as I write this.

As you can see anti conspircy theroists can also turn a blind eye to the truth, in an effort to perserve their ideal world where everyone and every source of information can be taken as it is persented. This is the core of that 'iron age' wisdom you are trying to shun here. It is to seek truth and prize it above all else. Even if it means going against popular beliefs and social manidates.

Here's the deal- as you believe, so you will behave. So, if you believe that God has a plan, that is going to influence all of your decisions, actions, etc.

Then you do not understand the nature of God's plan. 'God's Plan" as outlined in scripture is to give us the ablity to choose. (He did this with the planting of the tree of knoweledge in the Garden) and to redeem us from the bad choices we make/sin (Christ did this on the cross.) The final part of that plan is for us to seek and save the lost, once the last person who is to be saved has been saved, He is to end the reign of man.

Or so says the bible. Now if you're privy to some other plan then feel free to share.

It's up to the creator what happens. If bad things happen to you then you start thinking that God is angry with you and you deserve this.

Uh, no. If bad things happen then bad things happen and it is up to you to live and learn from it or to let it turn your heart cold to God, because you did not get your way.

To a very large extent you cease to think for yourself.

The irony. Do you know how many times in 8 years of doing this I have answered this exact line of thought? To which none have ever been able to go line by line and refute every point I bring up. Why? Because most of you never thought about God or the bible in the way I am sharing with you.

It's like you guys were all programed in some big institution to all think the same way and call it 'thinking for yourself.'

It's your life to live but you keep trying to live it for some imaginary being instead of living it for yourself. Whose life is it anyway?

...and if the being is not imaginary?

That is one of the things I most have against the continuation of religious belief.

So if it were up to you. the religious need to be placed in camps and made to stay there until re-educated? forced to think as you do? Some sort of Camp that forces them to Concentrate on being an approved citizen...

The only one 'final question' is what to do with those who will not yeild their beliefs?

What they are doing is taking people's lives away from them with their ridiculous fairy tales.

So, This is why your so anti conspiricy! You wanted to set up a peer pressure dynamic so when someone argues this point you can fall back on your orginal dismissal of God and religion you established in your opening statement. Thus allowing you the option to mock those who do not think as you do.

They frighten small children with graphic descriptions of hell.

If you think the descriptions are terriable, wait to you see it for yourself.

They tell girls that they must spend their lives subordinate to first their father, and then their husband.

"They" also tell the boys to be subordinate to their fathers, and to love their wives to the point of giving their own lives for them, as Christ did for the Chruch. Or do you not care about the whole context of that passage as it speaks against the point you were trying to make.

They endlessly promote obedience over using one's brain and thinking for themselves.

We are talking about Christianity right? For the stated purpose of Christianity is to attone for all of the DISobedience one is privy to in his/her life time. Meaning God's knows we can not truly be obediant, so He sacrificed His Son so you have a way to be found righteous in His eyes, without having to be 'obediant' to all of His law.

But it is all done with love so that makes it OK.

As apposed to what. Hating the religious because they do not want to live for self? Demanding the banishment of all who do not think as you do? From where do you demand these decrees in this manifesto? It's obvious, your thread here was not written from a place of 'love.' Does that mean anger, hate and intollerance is ok so long as it is done in the name of 'logic and reason?'

If you believe that being Gay (as if you had a choice in such things) is wrong,

Being Gay is a sin.

then you can discriminate against such people and you are being righteous in doing so.

Actually no you can not. for all sin.
Being Gay is a sin like any other and all are born unto sin. Meaning we are all 'wrong' and ALL were born to be 'wrong.' So no 'wrong' person can say he is better than another. What Makes us right before God is the sacrifice Christ made. Nothing else. He did this so no man could boast about his own 'rightness.'

If you believe that your religion is the only right and proper way for a person to live their life, then it is OK for you to do all kinds of things:

Are we still talking about Christianity? For the Christ tells us the religion in of itself is meaningless.

Do all in your power to take away a woman's right to choose, without actually outlawing it outright, being those nasty feminists got that Roe v Wade decision on their side. But that isn't going to stop us doing what is right, dammit!

You are aware killing a baby is killing a baby, and if you do it yourself or simply support such a desision then it kinda takes you out of the realm to judge a God who would do the same...

Meaning if you support the murder of a child then you loose any legitmate claim you may have had to judge so one who does not support the murder of a baby.

Let a woman die rather than terminate her pregnancy, because that's what God wants. What's right is right.

So of the 3500 +/- abortions that happened yesterday just in the US, 3500 women lives were saved?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_abort...aily_in_US

Are you familiar with the term logical fallacy?

Deny adolescents proper sex education because it would be improper to teach them anything other than abstain until you are married.

Again are you speaking of Christianity? This is the Christian section of the website is it not?

Because Christians in general do not discourage sexual education. They simply think that it is not something the state should decide for them. after all if a religious person should decide their 5 years old is too young to be exposed to sex, then the State should not force their children to be apart of a sex education class.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/edu...nesco.html

Preach anti-gay hate messages from your pulpits, make gay kids being dragged to your services by their fundie parents hate themselves as sinners and perverts and sick deviants with your intolerant “abomination before the lord” crapola.

Do you have an biblical passage mandating this behavior?

Do your damnedest to fight the light of science and progress because you know that your iron-age ignorant “wisdom” is the true light of God's wisdom and love which will be the salvation of humankind.

What is the alternitive? To become someone who HATES all who does not think as he does? To force people to give up their beliefs so you can feel comfortable about your life choices?

How about this: Grow up, and own up to how you live your life. If you want redemption, seek it. if you want to live for self then simply do so, and leave those who do not want to live for self the freedom to inturn live the way they want to live.

Amen.

[Faith No More]

if you want to live for self an imaginary sky-daddy then simply do so, and leave those who do not want to live for self an imaginary sky-daddy the freedom to inturn live the way they want to live.

Fixed that for you, so maybe you could get the hypocrisy of telling others to let you be.

[Drich]

if you want to live for self an imaginary sky-daddy then simply do so, and leave those who do not want to live for self an imaginary sky-daddy the freedom to inturn live the way they want to live.

Fixed that for you, so maybe you could get the hypocrisy of telling others to let you be.

..Still dont see it. Where am I suggesting that atheist be forced into re-education camps? Or where did i suggest that all non Christians be FORCED to accept Christ? Because I can show you where the OP states that all 'religious people' be forced to stop worshiping their God(s) simply because the OP thought it better to live for self.

[Faith No More]

..Still dont see it. Where am I suggesting that atheist be forced into re-education camps? Or where did i suggest that all non Christians be FORCED to accept Christ? Because I can show you where the OP states that all 'religious people' be forced to stop worshiping their God(s) simply because the OP thought it better to live for self.

None of what you claim is actually in the OP. Please, show me anywhere that using force or coercion to get people to change their beliefs is advocated. You're just projecting your own persecution complex, and topping it off with a hypocritical plea to a "live and let live" approach to religious beliefs.

[Raven]

Raven Wrote: What we believe to be true colors everything which we see. For instance, if you have a hypothetical 30-something guy who is given to conspiracy theories, everywhere this guy looks he is going to see conspiracies. He'll probably think that there was a plot of some kind to kill JFK,
Drich wrote:
Smile If there had not been a plot to kill JFK he would not have been Shot by Lee Harvey. (It only takes one to plot.)

1-One person plotting does not a conspiracy make.

Quote:that the moon landings were faked, that economic problems are caused by some vast government/banker conspiracy,

Drich wrote:There was. it is called greed. Greed is what allowed the banks and the goverment/Fanny mae and freddy mac, to make one bad loan after another in a real estate bubble, to people who could not ever hope to pay back what they had borrowed.

2-Greedy bankers does not a conspiracy make either, unless they were all acting in concert. They were merely acting like greedy bankers and traders. It was not like some group effort thought it out beforehand. Don't be obtuse.

Quote:and be concerned about the Muslims conspiring to take over the US, with Obama as their head guy who is going to take away our guns, lock up true Xtian NRA members and institute Sharia law.

Drich wrote:Maybe not take over, but Mr. Obama has loosened this country's policys enough to allow attacks by radical muslims to be carried out against the US once again. Not saying this is an all bad thing as there needs to be an over all ying to the pervious adminstrations yang, but one can not argue that we are more vurnable than we were 8 years ago.

-You may not be caught up in that crazy right-wing fantasy world, but there are enough who are. Those were who I was referring to, the people who listen to Pam Geller, etc. I was just making the point that as you believe, so shall you act. They believe that, and they act accordingly. We all act according to what it is that we believe, whatever that is. All this Islamophobia is not helping.

Quote: And he will believe this as strongly as I believe that the sky is overcast as I write this.

Drich wrote:As you can see anti conspircy theroists can also turn a blind eye to the truth, in an effort to perserve their ideal world where everyone and every source of information can be taken as it is persented. This is the core of that 'iron age' wisdom you are trying to shun here. It is to seek truth and prize it above all else. Even if it means going against popular beliefs and social manidates.

4-Just what “truth” am I turning a blind eye toward? No one thinks that everyone and every source of information can be taken as presented. Whatever gave you that idea? Because I don't subscribe to your “revealed truth” from some dusty old tome that was written by various authors ages ago? Nothing in the Bible fact-checks very well. I very much want truth, that is why I don't try to find it in that book of yours.

Quote:Here's the deal- as you believe, so you will behave. So, if you believe that God has a plan, that is going to influence all of your decisions, actions, etc.

Drich wrote:Then you do not understand the nature of God's plan. 'God's Plan" as outlined in scripture is to give us the ablity to choose. (He did this with the planting of the tree of knoweledge in the Garden) and to redeem us from the bad choices we make/sin (Christ did this on the cross.) The final part of that plan is for us to seek and save the lost, once the last person who is to be saved has been saved, He is to end the reign of man.

Or so says the bible. Now if you're privy to some other plan then feel free to share.

5-I cannot understand that which does not exist. I have the ability to choose because he does not even exist.

Now we get to the infamous tree! Yes! The world's very first case of entrapment! Sorry, you are going to have to let them move back into the Garden because this case has been thrown out due to the malfeasance of the authorities. It's quite simple: Your sky-daddy is omnimax. He knew full well what would happen when he put that tree there. He knew that the snake would come along and entice Eve, who would in turn entice Adam. Once that was done, their goose was cooked. And God knew what would happen. Entrapment. Not very nice behavior for an omnibenevolent creator, is it?

Reading that book one easily comes to the conclusion that his poor little children are merely playthings for a malevolent super being who delights in “smiting” his creations at every least opportunity. Your god has some serious anger-control issues. First you had Adam and Eve, then the Noachian flood (let's destroy everything and everyone on the planet because I'm in a bad mood!), the whole silly tower of Babel thing, destroying Sodom for being like any city is going to be. Then comes one of my favorites, Lot's wife gets turned into a pillar of salt for the high crime of turning and looking back at the city that had been her home. What a terrible thing to do! And don't you think that the whole business with Egypt was kind of overdone? We could go on forever, but what for? You slough all the atrocities in the OT off because of your beliefs. You have too much invested in this notion of he is the one true god and you do not dare to question what is in there, or to recognize that it is atrocious. You are blind to the life-denying ugliness of it all.

Quote:It's up to the creator what happens. If bad things happen to you then you start thinking that God is angry with you and you deserve this.

Drich wrote:Uh, no. If bad things happen then bad things happen and it is up to you to live and learn from it or to let it turn your heart cold to God, because you did not get your way.

Quote: To a very large extent you cease to think for yourself.

Drich wrote:The irony. Do you know how many times in 8 years of doing this I have answered this exact line of thought? To which none have ever been able to go line by line and refute every point I bring up. Why? Because most of you never thought about God or the bible in the way I am sharing with you.

Drich wrote:It's like you guys were all programed in some big institution to all think the same way and call it 'thinking for yourself.'

6-Actually I was programmed in some big institution, the Roman Catholic church. I was in their clutches for 12 years, primary and secondary school. Getting out from under the influence of that brainwashing was no mean feat. You don't get out without some damage that will never go away. As for thinking about God or the bible your way, why would I want to? It isn't real.

Quote: It's your life to live but you keep trying to live it for some imaginary being instead of living it for yourself. Whose life is it anyway?

Drich wrote:...and if the being is not imaginary?

7-OK, what if the being is not imaginary? Well, he sure has been doing a damned good job of making it look like he is. So just maybe he's trying to entrap all of us atheists. But I really don't think so.

Quote:That is one of the things I most have against the continuation of religious belief.

Drich wrote:So if it were up to you. the religious need to be placed in camps and made to stay there until re-educated? forced to think as you do? Some sort of Camp that forces them to Concentrate on being an approved citizen...

The only one 'final question' is what to do with those who will not yeild their beliefs?

8-Don't put words in my mouth. I expressed a dislike of the continuation of religious belief, yes. Doing so does not lead to my desiring some kind of neo-Maoist cultural revolution with atheist cadres running around wild-eyed rounding believers up. What's with the paranoia? In time, and it won't be in my lifetime, of that I'm certain, humankind will evolve beyond it's need to subject itself to this celestial North Korea known as religion. We don't need it anymore. We've grown up enough that we don't need imaginary friends any longer, especially ones that are so bloody malevolent and vindictive.

Quote: What they are doing is taking people's lives away from them with their ridiculous fairy tales.

So, This is why your so anti conspiricy! You wanted to set up a peer pressure dynamic so when someone argues this point you can fall back on your orginal dismissal of God and religion you established in your opening statement. Thus allowing you the option to mock those who do not think as you do.

9-Yes, these ridiculous fairy tales are taking people's lives away. How does that make me “anti-conspiracy”? Huh? I am of the opinion that conspiracy theorists are a bit loony, and I was only using them as a way of showing that you will see things according to what it is you will believe. So this really does not follow. Where does peer pressure come into this? Not from my side surely. You religious types are the ones who go in for that. Such as the recent case (this kind of stuff happens all too frequently in this country) of Gage Pulliam.

Every single classroom in the Muldrow, Okla., school district has a Commandments plaque on the wall. That didn’t sit well with Gage Pulliam, so he decided to do something about it.

Pulliam contacted the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), which informed the district that the religious plaques are a violation of the Constitution and should be removed.

Pulliam initially wanted to complain anonymously, but he chose to reveal his identity recently. Now he tells the “Friendly Atheist” blog that both he and his sister have been victims of verbal harassment and threats.

https://www.au.org/blogs/wall-of-separat...-at-public
This kind of crap happens over and over again. So don't go pulling that peer-pressure bullshit on me.

Quote: They frighten small children with graphic descriptions of hell.

Drich wrote:If you think the descriptions are terriable, wait to you see it for yourself.

10-Even if you were correct about the existence of hell, what possible good could come from traumatizing very young children with these graphic descriptions of hell? What is with you people that you would want to do that? There is no excuse.

Quote:They tell girls that they must spend their lives subordinate to first their father, and then their husband.

Drich wrote:"They" also tell the boys to be subordinate to their fathers, and to love their wives to the point of giving their own lives for them, as Christ did for the Chruch. Or do you not care about the whole context of that passage as it speaks against the point you were trying to make.

11-Context be damned. In fundamentalist Xtianity women don't count for squat. They're just there to do as they are told, bear kids and keep house. Women do not get to be full human beings in this scenario. The men get everything. He's in charge. He decides. He always gets a pass. Love their wives? Maybe they do, but it is still a patriarchy. I don't treat my wife like that. We are partners, equally. It's our household, our marriage, our mutual life together. Nobody is “more equal than others”. Anything else would be repugnant to us.

Quote:They endlessly promote obedience over using one's brain and thinking for themselves.

Drich wrote: We are talking about Christianity right? For the stated purpose of Christianity is to attone for all of the DISobedience one is privy to in his/her life time. Meaning God's knows we can not truly be obediant, so He sacrificed His Son so you have a way to be found righteous in His eyes, without having to be 'obediant' to all of His law.

12-That is such a load of stuff and nonsense. For starters, whatever was the necessity of this hideous blood sacrifice that Jesus is supposed to have made ? They never did explain that one to me. Those damnable nuns telling us over and over “He died for your sins!” We were little kids ffs! What the hell were we supposed to have done? That is no way to treat children. But anyway, as it stands now, I only have to say that if he wanted to do that, that's his look-out. This happened 2000 years ago. I had nothing to do with it. I do not even accept the concept of sin. That's bullshit. There is right and wrong, yes. We can figure that out by ourselves, thank you. And why your omnimax deity had to take a little side-trip down to planet earth and get himself killed in order to cleanse the earth of humankind's sins is beyond me. What was the necessity of a blood sacrifice to himself!?? Will someone please explain that one? This is some seriously twisted stuff.

Quote:But it is all done with love so that makes it OK.

Drich: As apposed to what. Hating the religious because they do not want to live for self? Demanding the banishment of all who do not think as you do? From where do you demand these decrees in this manifesto? It's obvious, your thread here was not written from a place of 'love.' Does that mean anger, hate and intollerance is ok so long as it is done in the name of 'logic and reason?'

13-Again, do not put words in my mouth. I did not call for the banishment of anybody. We'll evolve beyond all this tribal god nonsense in time. As I said before, I do not expect it to happen in my lifetime. I would like them to quit trying to force their anachronistic beliefs down everyone else's throats in the meantime, however.

Quote:If you believe that being Gay (as if you had a choice in such things) is wrong,

Drich wrote:Being Gay is a sin.

Quote:then you can discriminate against such people and you are being righteous in doing so.

Drich wrote:Actually no you can not. for all sin.
Being Gay is a sin like any other and all are born unto sin. Meaning we are all 'wrong' and ALL were born to be 'wrong.' So no 'wrong' person can say he is better than another. What Makes us right before God is the sacrifice Christ made. Nothing else. He did this so no man could boast about his own 'rightness.'

14-Some people are gay. They just are. Some people are bi, and others are transgendered. It happens. Why do you want to make their lives even more difficult by giving them a hard time about it? I've got it easy, I'm a white heterosexual male with a wife and 4 grown kids. That saved me a lot of aggravation and pain. What these people have to put up with from self-righteous intolerant people who want to label them as being wrong just for being is unconscionable. To do this to them is just plain fucking wrong. What is it to you (or your god) who these people love, or how they express their gender identity? How are they hurting you, me or anyone? They are just trying to live, dammit. Why can't you just let them?

Quote:If you believe that your religion is the only right and proper way for a person to live their life, then it is OK for you to do all kinds of things:

Drich wrote:Are we still talking about Christianity? For the Christ tells us the religion in of itself is meaningless.

15-Bollocks. You bloody xtians wrap your whole lives around this identity of yours.

Quoteo all in your power to take away a woman's right to choose, without actually outlawing it outright, being those nasty feminists got that Roe v Wade decision on their side. But that isn't going to stop us doing what is right, dammit!

Drich wrote: You are aware killing a baby is killing a baby, and if you do it yourself or simply support such a desision then it kinda takes you out of the realm to judge a God who would do the same...

Meaning if you support the murder of a child then you loose any legitmate claim you may have had to judge so one who does not support the murder of a baby.

16-Terminating a pregnancy is not killing a baby. A non-viable fetus is not a baby. What I love most is how these holy rollers make all this noise about the “right to life” but don't want to provide a social safety net to the kids once they are here.

Quote:Let a woman die rather than terminate her pregnancy, because that's what God wants. What's right is right.
Drich wrote:
ROFLOL
So of the 3500 +/- abortions that happened yesterday just in the US, 3500 women lives were saved?
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_abort...aily_in_US

Are you familiar with the term logical fallacy?

17-I was referring to the case of Savita Halappanavar, who died in a hospital in Ireland. She was determined to be miscarrying and the hospital denied her the care she needed (to terminate the pregnancy) because a “a fetal heartbeat was present”. She continued on for 2 and half days until the heartbeat stopped. The dead fetus was removed and she died of septicaemia. But they did the right thing. Hallelujah!

Quoteeny adolescents proper sex education because it would be improper to teach them anything other than abstain until you are married.

Drich wrote:Again are you speaking of Christianity? This is the Christian section of the website is it not?

Because Christians in general do not discourage sexual education. They simply think that it is not something the state should decide for them. after all if a religious person should decide their 5 years old is too young to be exposed to sex, then the State should not force their children to be apart of a sex education class.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/edu...nesco.html

What a crock! The US has been fighting a never ending fight over sex ed for adolescents. OK, adolescents. It does not work. It has increased teen pregnancy. All because these religious fuckwads are afraid their kids might actually act like kids. The horror! <shudder>

f you wish to live in a celestial North Korea, be my guest. Just keep your iron age beliefs off my law books.

[Drich]

..Still dont see it. Where am I suggesting that atheist be forced into re-education camps? Or where did i suggest that all non Christians be FORCED to accept Christ? Because I can show you where the OP states that all 'religious people' be forced to stop worshiping their God(s) simply because the OP thought it better to live for self.

None of what you claim is actually in the OP. Please, show me anywhere that using force or coercion to get people to change their beliefs is advocated. You're just projecting your own persecution complex, and topping it off with a hypocritical plea to a "live and let live" approach to religious beliefs.

It is on the ninth quote from the top, on my response to the op. he said he was against allowing the continuation of religious belief. Again where have I said I was against the continuation of atheism? I have said from the beginning. god has seen fit to give us all the oppertunity to choose whether or not to follow Him in this life. Who am I to judge the choice you have made for yourself? My only task here is to provide clarity for those who seek it.

[Faith No More]

It is on the ninth quote from the top, on my response to the op. he said he was against allowing the continuation of religious belief.

Try again. This is the exact quote.

That is one of the things I most have against the continuation of religious belief.

Nowhere does he say he was against allowing it, which is a far cry from the persecution about "camps" and "re-education" you've been rambling on about. He just says that is one of the things he has that makes him against the idea of the continuation of religious beliefs, not that he was against allowing it, nor was there any indication that force should be used to stop it. You're putting words in his/her mouth.

Again where have I said I was against the continuation of atheism?
I have said from the beginning. god has seen fit to give us all the oppertunity to choose whether or not to follow Him in this life. Who am I to judge the choice you have made for yourself?

Well then, why not respect the fact that we have chosen and stop peddling your beliefs? Were you not the one saying to leave others to live in turn as they see fit?

My only task here is to provide clarity for those who seek it.

If that was true, you would not post unless someone solicited your opinion. You would only speak to those that actually asked for your clarity instead of posting your opinion at every chance you get.

[Sal]

The only power of belief as far as I'm concerned is the placebo effect. Everything else associated with power of belief is delusion, IMO.

I try to maintain a view of reality, appropriated by my 5 senses, as unclouded by belief as possible. Sure, I have a model of reality and all that, but I continually try to accommodate the possibility that what I believe to be true, might be false. The reason I do this is because I'm Bi-polar and I'm very susceptible to ascribing things that aren't there (Type 1 Error).

[Drich]

1-One person plotting does not a conspiracy make.

Neither I nor your comment in the OP said anything about a conspiracy. You Said:"There wasn't a plot to JFK." I responded with if there wasn't a plot to kill JKF He would not have been shot.

2-Greedy bankers does not a conspiracy make either, unless they were all acting in concert. They were merely acting like greedy bankers and traders. It was not like some group effort thought it out beforehand. Don't be obtuse.

Don't be naive or obstinate here. I also listed a two govermental agencies (That in your rebuttal you seem to have forgotten about) who had to work in concert with banks to provide loans to people who could not pay them back in order to inflate the market driving up prices and profits. colusion on this level makes a conspiricy sport.

-You may not be caught up in that crazy right-wing fantasy world, but there are enough who are. Those were who I was referring to, the people who listen to Pam Geller, etc. I was just making the point that as you believe, so shall you act. They believe that, and they act accordingly. We all act according to what it is that we believe, whatever that is. All this Islamophobia is not helping.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrorist_a...facilities
So all of the attacks on US embassies in conjucntion with the recent domestic terror attacks are because of Islam based fear mongering?

Perhaps it would not be so easy to sell fear (That's what a monger is, a peddler of goods) if the majority of the attacks against this country were not carried out by those who fly the flag of that religion.

After all do you fear the sons of Thor? The fighters of anubis? could I sell you on the Idea that a group of radical buddhist monks were bombing subway trains? No?!?! Why do you think that is? Because none of these groups has a long standing record of doing these things. Now what if I replaced Buddhist monks with Islamic extremeists? would you believe that?

4-Just what “truth” am I turning a blind eye toward?

That it only takes one person to plot the death of another, even a president. That when Banks and govermental agencies work together and give loans to people who do not qualify for them, for the sake of the bottom line. (While bannering the idea the people just need to be given equal oppertunities to own their own home. even if they can not pay back their loans.) the fact that you believe that what you think about a person or group of people somehow dictates their behaivor as in the case of muslim extremeist behavior.. These are all examples of turning a blind eye to truth.

No one thinks that everyone and every source of information can be taken as presented. Whatever gave you that idea?

Your opening statement in contrast of the truth I have persented. You wanted to automatically dismiss your examples as crazy conspiricy theorists fodder, when in fact there was some truths you chose to over look.

Because I don't subscribe to your “revealed truth” from some dusty old tome that was written by various authors ages ago? Nothing in the Bible fact-checks very well.

You have failed to establish your ablity to decern basic facts from examples of popular belief. (The belief being that you whole list of examples was a list of debunked conspiricys) So how is it I am to take your word and your failed ablity of descernment and apply it to the bible?

I very much want truth, that is why I don't try to find it in that book of yours.

Do you know what Irony is? You claim to want to know the truth but can not recognise it when modern examples of it effortlessly pass you by. Yet you feel somehow this makes you an expert in discerning whether or not a book you have not read contains truth..

5-I cannot understand that which does not exist. I have the ability to choose because he does not even exist.

Says your fact checking ablities? Says your philosphy professor? Says a website you fancy???

Now we get to the infamous tree! Yes! The world's very first case of entrapment! Sorry, you are going to have to let them move back into the Garden because this case has been thrown out due to the malfeasance of the authorities. It's quite simple: Your sky-daddy is omnimax.

Uh, No. God is not 'omni-max.' That is unless you can use the bible and show me where it says God is 'Omni-max.'

He knew full well what would happen when he put that tree there. He knew that the snake would come along and entice Eve, who would in turn entice Adam.

Indeed, Hence Choice. He even allowed Satan to go in and tempt them/Making them aware of the choice they had.

Once that was done, their goose was cooked. And God knew what would happen. Entrapment. Not very nice behavior for an omnibenevolent creator, is it?

Two things. One the bible does not say God is omni benevolent. Matter of fact it says the oppsite. God loves His Children and to hell with the rest (literally.) John 3:16 says God's love is conditional. The OT is littered with examples of a God who only shows favor to His people.

Two. The story does not end in the garden. It ends at the cross where attonement for all sin is possiable.

Reading that book one easily comes to the conclusion that his poor little children are merely playthings for a malevolent super being who delights in “smiting” his creations at every least opportunity. Your god has some serious anger-control issues

Only for those outside of Grace.

First you had Adam and Eve, then the Noachian flood (let's destroy everything and everyone on the planet because I'm in a bad mood!), the whole silly tower of Babel thing, destroying Sodom for being like any city is going to be. Then comes one of my favorites, Lot's wife gets turned into a pillar of salt for the high crime of turning and looking back at the city that had been her home. What a terrible thing to do! And don't you think that the whole business with Egypt was kind of overdone? We could go on forever, but what for? You slough all the atrocities in the OT off because of your beliefs. You have too much invested in this notion of he is the one true god and you do not dare to question what is in there, or to recognize that it is atrocious. You are blind to the life-denying ugliness of it all.

You assume too much I embrace all God has done to bring us to this state of free grace.

6-Actually I was programmed in some big institution, the Roman Catholic church. I was in their clutches for 12 years, primary and secondary school. Getting out from under the influence of that brainwashing was no mean feat. You don't get out without some damage that will never go away. As for thinking about God or the bible your way, why would I want to? It isn't real.

I do not disagree with you here. Your understand of God (if it is solely based in Roman catholicism) does not repersent the God of the bible, and therefore can not be 'real.' For Catholics have allow their church leaders to rewrite the bible to include non canonical decrees and law. (they superceeded what the bible said with what the pope believes.)

That said the programing I was talking about was the programing that has you attack 'christianity' the same exact way millions of other people just like you has.

7-OK, what if the being is not imaginary? Well, he sure has been doing a damned good job of making it look like he is.

To who, you? Have you become the yard stick in which all things have been measured? In otherwords just because God does not bend over backwards to grant you unlimited wishes, does not mean He is imaginary.

So just maybe he's trying to entrap all of us atheists. But I really don't think so.

-or- He knows there can not be a heart felt choice made about your eternal destiny, if you are aware of His glory and all that He has to offer you.
You will either be forced into belief as a matter of self perservation, or you will be bought by what He has to potentially offer.

It is not until you start your own personal relationship with God, that He opens your eyes ears and Heart to Him.

9-Yes, these ridiculous fairy tales are taking people's lives away. How does that make me “anti-conspiracy”? Huh?

Your begging the question here. Your anti conspiracy tendancies have nothing to do with the bible persay. your A/C/T places you in a position to use peer pressure (To liken anyone who disagrees with you) to an anti conspiracy nut job. (As proven by your statement below)

I am of the opinion that conspiracy theorists are a bit loony, and I was only using them as a way of showing that you will see things according to what it is you will believe. So this really does not follow.

It follows so closly to my orginal assessment you cant see it.

10-Even if you were correct about the existence of hell, what possible good could come from traumatizing very young children with these graphic descriptions of hell? What is with you people that you would want to do that? There is no excuse.

But forcing 5 year old to be sexually educated in order to "Accuratly report sexual abuse" isn't traumatic?

I do not agree with the R/C model of Hell nor do I believe Hell should be used to force people into the church, but Hell is real and it should be fully taught and understood.

11-Context be damned. In fundamentalist Xtianity women don't count for squat.

According to whom?

They're just there to do as they are told, bear kids and keep house. Women do not get to be full human beings in this scenario. The men get everything. He's in charge. He decides. He always gets a pass. Love their wives? Maybe they do, but it is still a patriarchy. .

If one loves as He has been commanded, then a patriarchy is not synomous with a dictatorship or monarchy. Placing one ahead of the house hold is Christianity is purposed in such a way as to hold the someone accountable for the Spiritual Health of everyone in said house hold.

I don't treat my wife like that. We are partners, equally. It's our household, our marriage, our mutual life together. Nobody is “more equal than others”. Anything else would be repugnant to us.

It is my wish for you that you continue to live in a place/time that allows you option to live and work as equals. However if life does not afford you the oppertunity to allow your household two masters, then know repugnant or not, the leadership from one of the two marriage partners does indeed work. Or so say thousands of years of human history.

12-That is such a load of stuff and nonsense. For starters, whatever was the necessity of this hideous blood sacrifice that Jesus is supposed to have made ? They never did explain that one to me.

You've never heard: "The wages of sin is death." That means the only righteous punishment for sin, the only attonement for sin is death.

Those damnable nuns telling us over and over “He died for your sins!” We were little kids ffs! What the hell were we supposed to have done? That is no way to treat children. But anyway, as it stands now, I only have to say that if he wanted to do that, that's his look-out. This happened 2000 years ago. I had nothing to do with it. I do not even accept the concept of sin.

Then why spend so much time argueing it?

That's bullshit. There is right and wrong, yes. We can figure that out by ourselves, thank you.

Do you think the death camp Nazis thought they were doing wrong? If you cared to look past the "I was just following orders." You would see the point or purpose to their actions. It was much like the reasoning used to justify the wholesale slaughter of the native americans just 100 years prior..

Without the absolute standard of sin, 'right and wrong' become a sliding scale, justified by a given soceity. For a soceity can always justify it's deeds, making right and wrong relitive.

And why your omnimax deity had to take a little side-trip down to planet earth and get himself killed in order to cleanse the earth of humankind's sins is beyond me. What was the necessity of a blood sacrifice to himself!?? Will someone please explain that one? This is some seriously twisted stuff.

Christ died so you did not have to.

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14-Some people are gay. They just are. Some people are bi, and others are transgendered. It happens. Why do you want to make their lives even more difficult by giving them a hard time about it? I've got it easy, I'm a white heterosexual male with a wife and 4 grown kids. That saved me a lot of aggravation and pain.

Did you not read my response or did you not understand it? Homosexuality is a sexual sin like any other. Whether your sexual sin of choice leans to homosexuality or heterosexuality, the damnable offence is still sexual sin. As such all sexual sin require one to repent of those sins.

To not identify homosexuality as a sexual sin is to condemn the homosexual to Hell.

What these people have to put up with from self-righteous intolerant people who want to label them as being wrong just for being is unconscionable. To do this to them is just plain fucking wrong. What is it to you (or your god) who these people love, or how they express their gender identity? How are they hurting you, me or anyone? They are just trying to live, dammit. Why can't you just let them?

Because I do not hate them to the point of wanting to see them or anyone else consumed by Hell fire, unless it is their choice to do so.

That act requires that I identify sin, and call the sinner to repent of that sin. Justifying sin leads to self righteousness and even a sense of entitlement and or pride of sin, which is a damnable offense in God's eyes.

15-Bollocks. You bloody xtians wrap your whole lives around this identity of yours.

Maybe those in the R/C Church do, but the R/C church does not repersent the whole of Christianity.

16-Terminating a pregnancy is not killing a baby. A non-viable fetus is not a baby. What I love most is how these holy rollers make all this noise about the “right to life” but don't want to provide a social safety net to the kids once they are here.

So, late term partial birth abortions, are.. Not killing babies?

17-I was referring to the case of Savita Halappanavar, who died in a hospital in Ireland.

No you weren't you sighted one example to justify all others.

What a crock! The US has been fighting a never ending fight over sex ed for adolescents. OK, adolescents. It does not work. It has increased teen pregnancy. All because these religious fuckwads are afraid their kids might actually act like kids. The horror! <shudder>

f you wish to live in a celestial North Korea, be my guest. Just keep your iron age beliefs off my law books.

What happened to being an independant thinker? Or are you saying you need the goverment to teach YOUR 4 kids about sex and buy condoms for them? What is wrong with you taking responsiablity for your brood and I mine? Why do you feel it nessary to manidate that the goverment be the one who decides for everyone when their kids should know about sex?