How to shut up people who are against abortion

[Gilgamesh]

Why are you guys STILL arguing semantics?

Let's call a fetus a human. Let's just do it. It doesn't make a difference. It's now a human but it's not the same kind of human we are. So yeah, let's say we are for killing a different type of human under certain circumstances. That simple.

[KichigaiNeko]

How to shut people up about abortion?

"None of your fucking business"

[Minimalist]

http://www.powells.com/biblio/9781566633338

Wasted: The Plight of America's Unwanted Children

The situation, divi Tiberio, is not quite so rosy for the unwanted child on the other side of the labia.

Probably an impertinent time to remind you that the fuckwits you want to see running the country are the same fuckwits who will wash their hands of this "precious" little potential human the moment it is born.

We should eliminate the entire social welfare system. This includes eliminating food stamps, subsidized housing, and all the rest. Individuals who are unable to fully support themselves and their families through the job market must, once again, learn to rely on supportive family, church, community, or private charity to bridge the gap.

http://www.lp.org/

Oh, and btw, they disagree with you.

1.4 Abortion

Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.

From the same website.

[festive1]

A fetus is essentially a complete human body and isn't considered a fetus until then. Also all of the following are developed during the embryonic stage: eyes, ears, brain, circulatory system, complete cartilaginous skeleton, mouth, kidneys, liver, brain waves, reaction to stimuli and movement, a face, and hands and feet all of which is done within 8 weeks of pregnancy!

How can a fetus be considered a complete human if it cannot sustain it's own life? Sure they have developed some basic neurological functioning and a rudimentary circulatory system, but they cannot survive extra-utero. Pre-term infants born as late as 36 weeks can have difficulty with basic functioning, such as regulating body temperature or the ability to suckle without aspirating. Why should a woman be forced to carry this non-viable life inside her body until it becomes viable? Why isn't that the mother's decision and no one else's? It's her body, it's her offspring, it's her choice.

Actually, at about 9 weeks the baby has a sensory system intact and responds to stimuli and is capable of feeling and is about ten times more sensitive to stimuli than an adult. sooooo...

However, abortion occurs with anesthetic. A placenta is not so much a shield as it is a sieve. The anesthetic will reach the fetus, assuming some time is allowed for it to do so. This is also evident at full-term births in women who are medicated vs. those who are not.
Simply because the fetus has basic neurological reactions and functions, does not mean it is a baby... yet, see above.

---

Why are you guys STILL arguing semantics?

Let's call a fetus a human. Let's just do it. It doesn't make a difference. It's now a human but it's not the same kind of human we are. So yeah, let's say we are for killing a different type of human under certain circumstances. That simple.

Agreed. A rose by any other name... I prefer potential baby or fetus, personally.

---

I agree with Min, adoption isn't an easy choice or always a viable option. There's so many hormones when a woman is pregnant, including hormones that cause a sense of bonding and love. So a woman may KNOW the best thing to do is to give the baby up, but the emotions override that. Flash forward 2 months, up all night with a colicky baby, a mom who didn't really want the baby in the first place... That's (partially) why we have shaken baby syndrome and neglected children.

[catfish]

I agree with Min, adoption isn't an easy choice or always a viable option. There's so many hormones when a woman is pregnant, including hormones that cause a sense of bonding and love. So a woman may KNOW the best thing to do is to give the baby up, but the emotions override that. Flash forward 2 months, up all night with a colicky baby, a mom who didn't really want the baby in the first place... That's (partially) why we have shaken baby syndrome and neglected children.

And that's partly why infanticide is a little more than a slap on the wrist. Kill your baby? Do two years.
Abuse or neglect your baby? Do three years.

[downbeatplumb]

If men got pregnant, I doubt very much that abortion would have ever been illegal.

If men got pregnant they would be women wouldn't they?
I rather thought that was the difference.

[Big Blue Sky]

I wonder how many of you who are so anti-abortion will adopt an unwanted child

[ideologue08]

I wonder how many of you who are so anti-abortion will adopt an unwanted child

I don't mind adopting an unwanted child. So when are you going to come here to meet your new daddy?

[That guy who asked questions]

How can a fetus be considered a complete human if it cannot sustain it's own life? Sure they have developed some basic neurological functioning and a rudimentary circulatory system, but they cannot survive extra-utero. Pre-term infants born as late as 36 weeks can have difficulty with basic functioning, such as regulating body temperature or the ability to suckle without aspirating. Why should a woman be forced to carry this non-viable life inside her body until it becomes viable? Why isn't that the mother's decision and no one else's? It's her body, it's her offspring, it's her choice.


However, abortion occurs with anesthetic. A placenta is not so much a shield as it is a sieve. The anesthetic will reach the fetus, assuming some time is allowed for it to do so. This is also evident at full-term births in women who are medicated vs. those who are not.
Simply because the fetus has basic neurological reactions and functions, does not mean it is a baby... yet, see above.

---

Why are you guys STILL arguing semantics?

Let's call a fetus a human. Let's just do it. It doesn't make a difference. It's now a human but it's not the same kind of human we are. So yeah, let's say we are for killing a different type of human under certain circumstances. That simple.

Agreed. A rose by any other name... I prefer potential baby or fetus, personally.

---

1. What is it that makes us human? Is it our ability to walk on two legs? Our ability to eat food and regulate our temperature? Or is what makes us human our DNA? The ability to self-sustain doesn't really make a good point to determine something as a human. If we went by that definition then we couldn't consider neonates, infants, or toddlers humans because they aren't capable of self-sustaining either. Toss any of those different forms of a human out on their own with no support from a parent then more than likely they would die.

2. Why should a person not be held accountable for their own avoidable actions? If a woman willingly has unprotected sex and is expecting to not get pregnant then she's ignorant. There are far too many ways to prevent pregnancy for me to universally accept that aborting should be a form of unwanted pregnancy prevention that is a result of wanted pregnancy risk.

3. A fetus isn't a neonate, a child isn't a teen, a teen isn't an adult. The classifications of development are different but the being is still a human. While the method of the abortion may be true it doesn't change my opinion as to whether it is moral or not. Abortion isn't an issue of legality of killing "babies" for me because whether abortion is legal or illegal, women will still have abortions, only difference then is that they will be unsafe abortions that could kill the mother as well. That's why I don't care about legality, but my question is "is it moral to kill another human being?" because regardless of its developmental classification, it is a human. Saying it isn't a human because it doesn't look like you and I at our current stage of development seems like one of the racist arguments. "You're not white so you are an inferior life-form!"

4. Gilgamesh, i'm sorry but that just seems fucked up to me. As I've implied, our DNA is what makes us human. It's the only thing that if changed would render us not human. That's why I think it's a human at conception. You're pretty much saying in your argument that it's ok to kill inferior types of humans. Ok, that's not cool, because that gives justification for racism. The racist believes that they are superior because they are a different type of human. I don't think racism is a moral action at all. Also, your argument gives justification for killing born children and babies and pretty much anyone just because they are on a different period of development (or are a different "type"). A human is a human, regardless of developmental stage. The question is "is it moral to kill another human?" I can agree with the conclusion of dependent circumstances but not on the premise that the killed is a different "type" of human.

I think it's immoral for humans to kill humans. I think abortion is killing a human. I think morality is subjective therefore I think that abortion can be suggested as not immoral under the right circumstances but I wouldn't classify it as moral ever. That is my opinion on abortion and whether you accept it, agree with it, or say "fuck you" will not change that opinion but the latter certainly won't ever lead to any sort of agreement on anything.

[rexbeccarox]

Question guy:

1. It's not about what makes us humans or people or whatever semantic label you would like to press. It's about whether a woman has control over her own body and whether or not, because of a natural human function, she should be saddled with the potential parasite, if you will, resulting from said function (which, incidentally takes two to participate). Please keep in mind, I'm only using feminine pronouns because men are unable to get pregnant, therefore, unable to have abortions (in case gil is watching).

2. Do you really think that being held accountable is the best way to raise a kid? Do you think that people should be punished for having recreational sex? Do you think that raising a child is an appropriate punishment?

3. See my first answer, but in addition to that.... do you realize women have miscarriages all the time? Like, we could have no idea we were even pregnant, have a heavy period, which unbeknownst to us, included (or was) a miscarriage, and we didn't even know we were pregnant? A large percentage of pregnancies don't make it to term.

I have nothing to say about #4. That's gil's.

Abortion has been given too large a platform, IMO. It's no one's business except for the people considering it.